What is fun?

[Jeff_McDowell]

On Rich's Painswick thread, a number of people commented on the course being fun. I have my ideas of what makes a course fun (Cruden Bay and Dornoch areboth fun), but I'd like to hear what other people think.

So, what do you think makes a course fun?

[THuckaby2]

Wow Jeff - talk about a question with an infinite universe of possible answers... it's gonna be different for each golfer...

But I agree that each of Dornoch and Cruden Bay are fun, I know I'd find Painswick fun, so I'll give it a shot.

To me "fun" in golf comes primarily one of three things:

a) success achieved playing the game;
b) camraderie with friends and fellow players;
c) scenic beauty, which can come in many ways.

There are many courses that allow (a) to occur, in different ways:  ie, Cruden Bay is fun because it has so many short holes where birdies and eagles are possible, but require skill to obtain, whilst also having (c) to the max; and Shinnecock Hills is fun to me because it's so brutally hard that any par is cherished and any score even close to one's handicap is a huge success indeed... while such is indeed possible anyway...

So two totally different courses can each be called "fun", for me.

Obviously (b) can happen at the rankest muni, so that hardly counts in this discussion as the quality of the course has little bearing on this - although it is surely easier to achieve camraderie at a great course where everyone's happy to be there.

On the other side, I found little "fun" at Carnoustie, which played so hellaciously hard when I tackled it, there was literally zero chance for any success - unlike Shinnecock, where success could be achieved if I was at my best - at Carnoustie my best still wasn't going to achieve any form of success I'd feel happy about.  Couple that with no real scenic beauty (at least for me) and well, it wasn't "fun".  Heck yeah I'd play it again any day, I want to give it another chance, but that's just the easiest example I can come up with quickly of a course that isn't inherently "fun."

Maybe this helps, maybe not.  I sure as heck could go on all day into way greater detail but this is enough for now.

TH

[Jeff_Brauer]

Great question, and one for the ages.....

I suppose you'll get answers ranging from Co-Ed naked golfing and flirting with cart girls to drinking beer in the clubhouse, but I'll confine my answers to what makes courses fun.

As an architecture buff, I always enjoy playing historic courses, like St. Andrews,

As an average golfer, I  like scenic beauty.  One thing I really like is walking down a narrow path from a green to the next tee and then having the hole "open up" to me as I come out of the opening, like coming up the ramp to a football stadium.

I like a feeling of enclosure, such as valley fairways like those in Ireland and Cruden Bay.

As a golfer who doesn't hit ground ball tee shots, I like carry bunkers, like San Fransico CC and Royal Melbourne - with todays clubs, its not a chore to fly them, but its fun to see the ball dissapear over them anyway.  If I was really, really, sweating the carry, it would not be quite as fun.

I was thrilled with the tee shots at Castle Harbor and Mid Ocean, where the cross slopes and fast fairways really made you hit a tee shot to the high side of the fairway just to stay on the fairway.  It was the first time I saw "save" bunkers that I felt were truly necessary.

I like "misdirection" approach shots, like Redans, or any other approach with a ricchocet bank (like 4 at Riviera) where you don't play directly at the pin to get where you want to be.  At Sand Hills this year, I hit the first two greens, and on neither of them did my ball first land on the putting surface.

I like putting through Biaritz and Valley of Sin swales, but not to the extent that I would aim for them, a la Tommy N. at Pine Valley's Devils Asshole bunker!

I recall my first round in Scotland, where the wind had me playing 9 irons from 210 and 3 irons from 140, courses and conditions where the yardage book don't matter.  In those cases, I love playing with a crusty old Scottish caddy who insults me all the way around. (Ya moved everthan but your bowels on tha swing, laddie)

I never play competitively, and if I did, I will be the first to admit that my list would be different.

[THuckaby2]

FANTASTIC answer, Jeff!

Interesting though... I have played a LOT of competitive golf (though not on the national level like Mr. Mucci and others here)... I still do play competitively from time to time...

And I agree with every single thing you found fun there, I find all of that great fun also.  Every single bit of it.

Perhaps it's because competition has sunk precipitously in my priorities over the years, and even now in the competitive rounds I play I seem to enjoy a close well-fought loss to a nice guy way more fun than a huge win over anyone....

In any case, I loved your specifics re what makes courses fun.  Sand Hills has all of this in spades... every single bit of it....

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
The playing field for golf needs to provoke thought, offer challenge and yet be playable for those who use it. If these elements are present then fun can be had by all.  

[Steve Lapper]

Fun is:

Bringing your game to any course that offers significant and multiple challenges that are not based on absurd length, forced carry or artificial hazards.

Seeing abundant scenic beauty, local wildlife and natural colors of turf and landscape.

Trying new and different shots that produce interesting, and sometimes, strategically achieved rewards.

Playing a round at a crisp pace that offers just enough time to appreciate the surroundings and strategy.

Natural conditions that challenge the average round. Obviously considerable wind fits this bill, but so does cooler temps, ground fog, light rain sometimes (especially during a normal Northeastern hot summer).


All of these can be found on Munis, classic and modern courses. Clearly, some have considerable head starts like Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills, Friars Head, Cruden, RD and Somerset Hills....but fun is everywhere on most courses if you bring along the right attititude.

[THuckaby2]

fun is everywhere on most courses if you bring along the right attititude.

Damn is that right on.... I may have to steal another quote to replace Dick Daley below.

TH

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Jeff

The problem I have with this thread is that it is very hard for me to think of anything related to any game of golf I have played that has not been fun!  I do remember 3 rounds where I was ill--one attack of food poisioning (and on a links course ), one complete back spasm and one case of self-inflicted wounds from the night before.  I also remember two matches on the same day against two separate but truly equally obonxious opponents.  However, even with those memories, and a few others that I have probably repressed, they all pale before the joy and prvilege of hearing a Minnesotan in full UFF-DA mode..........

Cheers

Rich

[THuckaby2]

Per usual Rich is right on also.  What about golf ISN'T fun except for what he noted - matches against dickhead opponents?

(See Rich, I'll always go to a lower common denominator... of course I do recall you once telling me you've never had a "bad" opponent and matches were ALWAYS fun and that's why you so enjoy competition where I have run from it... but perhaps you meant just in Scotland... but I digress).

In any case, this is another reason this is a tough question... but we've had some damn good answers anyway.

TH

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tom

I think I said that all medal/stroke play is fun, even when you're stinking up the joint, because all you can do is blame yourself.  Match play can be a bummer when you're playing with a dickhead--just ask some of the Ryder boys (on both sides, probably!).

Cheers

Rich

[THuckaby2]

Fair enough, I remember it differently, and I am most likely remembering it incorrectly.  In any case you have it right on today!

I believe also that a lot of the joy can be sucked out of a medal play game with the wrong fellow competitor present... guys throwing clubs, cursing, calling imaginary rules violations have made a few rounds less than fun for me...

But what the hell, the point here isn't to find the negative - even though that is a lot easier, as there is so little of it it's quite easier to identify!

So what does make for a "fun" golf course... that is, makes one more fun to play than another?  That's the question here... and I've got to believe you have some answers to that, answers that I can and want to learn from... come on, Rich - why is Dornoch more fun for you to to play than, say... Bali Hai in Las Vegas?  And you can't say they're equally fun.... can you?

It's even money that's what you're going to say.  

I've always been one to say it's the GAME that's fun more for me than any particular course - that I could have fun playing golf on a parking lot - so this is a tough issue for me... but I have come to accept that some courses do allow for more inherent fun than others.

TH

[Ed_Baker]

Well said Gentlemen, I concur and would add that I have discovered a new level of golf fun, playing with fellow GCA'ers!

The "loneliness" of playing with guys that have no interest in architecture no longer has to be born in silence by we the generally afflicted.

It is such a blast to crest a hill and have the entire foursome let out a simultaneous WOW LOOK AT THAT!

To a man, everybody that I have met and played with through this site has been an absolute gentlemen on and off the golf course, GREAT FUN!

Thanks to all.

[THuckaby2]

Right on, concur, agreed 100% Mr. Baker.

You have the fun factor cornered out there at CRCC, by the way... but I sure as heck don't have to remind you of that!

TH

[ChipOat]

Rich Goodale:

Q'est-ce que se "dickhead"?

[THuckaby2]

Chip: in case Rich went to sleep - it is late over there - he was just quoting my use of the word "dickhead."  As I say, I took this to the lowest common denominator.  Rich very classily used the phrase "truly obnoxious opponent", which I just called "dickhead(s)".  That basically sums it up, more or less, for better or worse, here and there...  whoops, went off on another deep end there.

TH

[henrye]

There are many experiences on a golf course which can result in being fun - some of which have been mentioned.

The question Jeff asked was what makes a golf course fun?  To me, a course is fun if it delivers unexpected satisfaction.  I truly enjoy blind shots (where I know the course and where to aim).  I'm a member of a course that has a few, and they are my favourite holes (most of the time).  They are not considered "signature holes", not even necessarily that scenic, but they are fun.

The suspense of not knowing what the lie is or if you caught the slope adds an element.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Chip

Your question, "Qu'est-ce que c'est qu'un tete du pipe" deserves it's own thread, but probably on another DG.  I think we should stick to GCA on this one, and I apologise from bringing up the effect others have on our individual enjoyment.

Tom H

Vis a vis the GCA elements of fun, you and others on this thread have pointed out most of the ones that hit my hot buttons, particularly roll, chance and the possibility of greatness (i.e. driveable "4's", short hole greens that gather, like Painswick, or are so hard to hit that just getting there is a treat, like Dornoch).  Fast and firm and links and weather and humps and hollows and challenges are the operative words to me.  As Dornoch is one of the best examples of all of these, I tend to find it more fun than other courses.

Cheers

Rich

[Paul Kelly]

I like playing well on tough courses. In this regard, I like a course that will make you scramble if you get out of position. It's great fun scrambling well. This also holds for courses for courses that  make you hit a variety of shots. I have played many links courses that have forced carries, usually over knee-high rough or gorse and some over the ocean. The next hole you might be hitting a half five iron 120 yds under the wind and bounding it onto the green.

I think it's variety that makes things good fun, for me.

[Chris Kane]

Fun to me means playing a variety of shots over a round, not just high irons into the centre of greens.  As Jeff said earlier, I like shots where you don't have to aim directly at the pin in order to get close.  

Course that make you "invent" shots depending on weather conditions and other extraneous factors will stand the test of time for me.

[THuckaby2]

Very cool, Rich - and you're right, obviously - Dornoch has all this in spades.

Slainte!

TH

[Tim Weiman]

Though it is far from my favorite golf course I did have great fun one day at Secession Golf Club.

On one hole my caddy and I came upon my ball and had a somewhat lengthy discussion how to play the shot. I'm guessing it might have lasted 2-3 minutes.

We debated the wind direction, where to aim and land the ball and the choice of three different clubs before finally making a decision.

After all that I actually pulled off the shot.

Normally, that kind of indecision is absolute death. But, somehow the caddy and I managed to maintain a positive outlook through our deliberations. We just had the right chemistry I suppose.

That was fun!

[THuckaby2]

TIm - that does sound like great fun!

And hmmm... maybe it's because I only very rarely play at courses that have caddies, but I can honestly say I have never had a bad caddie.. that is, caddies have always ADDED to the fun factor for me.  Maybe it's also because I was one for a long time as a kid, like to talk to them, like to talk PERIOD, etc.... oh well, never mind.  

TH

[ChipOat]

Tom Huckaby:

Never had a bad caddie??  Lucky you.

While a bad caddie usually beats a good cart, you do get some chaf when you're expecting wheat - even at those clubs with active caddie programs.  In fact, my experience is that caddies in the UK are more likely to be a little full of themselves than at the "prestige" clubs on this side of the pond, IMO.

However, what's worse than a bad caddy is a d---head golfer who lets it ruin both his day and, worse, his playing partners' day as well.

Still beats a cart on those courses that are built for walking, though.

[TEPaul]

Maybe this is a great question and there seems to be lots of wonderful answers but this is a question that we need to be very careful of!

I think Pat Mucci is back in town and if and when he sees this thread he might just try to "formulize" what fun is or needs to be in golf and it's architecture!

Most of you are going to have to produce FACTS and more FACTS on how you can make claims on what's fun! Just mentioning theoreticals or even talking about experiences is probably not good enough either!

So be very careful what you say on this thread!

[TEPaul]

Also, Pat will contend that there are logically people out there who may not have had any fun in golf and if you all talk about fun in golf you're surely being "biased" against those people who have no fun in golf.

I hope not but I fear if Pat sees this thread it will create a firestorm on here!