Donald Ross and the machine

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

No, it ain't just surface drainage that makes Seminole's inherent hydrology and drainage work. It really was a pretty unique system that Ross installed. Don't believe me if you don't want, just call Seminole's maintenance deptartment and ask them about it. I doubt it has or ever had that much  to do with the site being basically flat in the middle. It had more to do with the fact that the middle of that site is or was dangerously low to sea-level, and as both you and I know actual sealevel ain't very far away.  

[TEPaul]

JeffB:

It's really tough for me to say this because I've known the guy all my life and I love him and Alice, and I feel like who am I to question him but I've been around that place most all my life and have known the people from way back who really did know that place and some of the things Pete has said about Seminole seem positively bizarre, not just to me but to a lot of people.

Pete thinks Wilson redesigned a whole lot more of that place than Wilson possibly could have or did. Somebody should probably show Pete Ross's original plans for Seminole, and he might change his mind. Pete told me that Wilson significantly moved the third green, and I'm sorry but it's in the same place right now it was on Ross's preconstruction topo map. Check the position and all the contour elevation lines yourself.

A couple of years ago we were at the same tourney (PVGC actually) and a bunch of us were chatting with Pete. I hadn't seen him in a while and it was great. One of the guys was from Seminole and when Pete heard that he told the guy that the greens of Seminole are the worst greens in America. I wish I'd taken a photo of the guy's expression.

I'll tell you JeffB, I figure I'm pretty good at starting a barroom brawl all by myself but if I ever had any doubts about that I'd definitely take Pete in there with me.  

My Dad and Pete and Alice were great old friends and that time at PV a few years ago Pete was telling me what great times they used to have and how much he loved my Dad. Pete told me sometimes Dad would drive him nuts like when Pete was in our house and the phone would ring and Dad wouldn't even notice it. Pete said finally he couldn't take it anymore and screamed "Goddamit Jimmy would you please answer the phone?" and he said Dad just looked at him calmly and said: "Pete, it doesn't sound like it's for me."

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I believe that Water management is controlled by the Lake Worth Water Management System, the Palm Beach County Water Management System and the South Florida Water Management System, all of which are integrated.

Usually, you can't use intake or outfall pumps without prior approvals.

The drainage flows to the centercut stream/ponds in the center of the property and then south, where they exit the property adjacent to # 9, where I believe the pumps are located.

The regulatory agencies in South Florida have a pretty thorough understanding of water management, and a strict policy for implementing same.

Without their approval, NOTHING moves in or out of a property with man's assistance.

[paul cowley]

Great story Tom.
...can't believe the course doesn't know how its above ground water works, but for a small fee I'll dowz out where the stuff flows underneath....and throw in the top for free.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Do I need to remind you that Ross built Seminole in the late 1920s?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

NO,

The outlet that's there now, adjacent to # 9 is the same one that was there in the 1920's.  Very little has changed.
It's the only way for water to leave the property.

The water goes south, under Seminole road and into the lagoons which feed into a larger body of water, the intercoastal and the ocean which are nearby.

If you take a look at the property on Google Earth you'll get a better feel for the feeder canals and the stream/pond system down the center.  In addition, the northern border of the property has an interceptor canal which prevents runoff onto the property.

The bathtub with the centerline groove, draining at the south end remains a good analogy.

You may recall, when one of the hurricanes came through a few years ago, that the entire interior of the bathtub/golfcourse was underwater.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Have you read Brad Klein's explanation of the pumping system constructed by Ross at Seminole? It's a bit more complex and sophisticated than just the matter of water simply filtering off the property through elevation and gravity to the south into what was called Little Lake Worth. Water flow in both directions is controlled by pumps.

The fresh water from the artesian well is recirculated through the property. The system also has the abiity to draw down excess water on the property and pump it off the property to the south which will prevent water to the south of the property from backing up onto Seminole. Obviously the volume produced by that hurricane last year can overwhelm the system and Seminole.

[John_Cullum]

 In addition, the northern border of the property has an interceptor canal which prevents runoff onto the property.

Thats not a canal, its a swamp.

To the north of that going up a hill are some old condos and a small county park, and across the street from the condos is a large manmade (I suspect) pond. That pond is significantly higher than the middle of the Seminole property.

Viewing all of the area indicates Seminole was probably a swamp in the middle, just like the swamp on the left side of 12 and 13.

[JESII]

John,

Are you certain about that?

There is a tall stand of sea grapes with a canal at their base that creates the separation between the 12th and 13th holes at Seminole and the condominuim complex immediately to the north. In that small specific area there is no room for a swamp to my knowledge. I am not sure what the purpose of this canal is however.

[John_Cullum]

I have a unique perspective on Seminole. Since I don't know anyone I can grovel to for access, my time spent on the grounds has been via trespassing. So I speak as one who has parked out on the street, walked down the slope of the county park, climbed the fence by the corner of the condos, and walked through the swamp. So yes, I know that area of the grounds way better than any one else on this board.

[JESII]

Fair enough!

Sounds like we're thinking of the same general area although I cannot say I can imagine exactly what you're speaking of. It must be an area in the far northwest corner of the property with the closest golf point being the 12th tee?

[Patrick_Mucci]

 In addition, the northern border of the property has an interceptor canal which prevents runoff onto the property.

Thats not a canal, its a swamp.

No, it's a canal.

No swamp exists today and no swamp existed in 1929[/color]

To the north of that going up a hill are some old condos and a small county park, and across the street from the condos is a large manmade (I suspect) pond. That pond is significantly higher than the middle of the Seminole property.

That's not true, the land directly north of the middle of Seminole is not that much higher than the mid section of Seminole.[/color]

Viewing all of the area indicates Seminole was probably a swamp in the middle, just like the swamp on the left side of 12 and 13.

The land between the dunes was not a swamp and neither was the land norht of Seminole[/color]

JES II,

John Cullum is wrong.
And, the 12th tee is at one of the highest elevations on the property.

[JESII]

Pat,

Unlike you, I am not suicidal. Hence I am not willing to tell a guy that waded through a South Florida swamp that he is wrong...






...then again, I just went to Google Earth and there ain't no swamp...sorry John.

[Mike_Cirba]

John Cullum,

I don't care if there's a swamp or not, frankly.

However, any guy who waded through ANYTHING holding water in south Florida just to have a look at a golf course gets my total respect and admiration.

I've gone to some great lengths but man, that's awesome!  

If they don't make you an honorary member, then there's really no justice!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Have you read Brad Klein's explanation of the pumping system constructed by Ross at Seminole?

Yes, I have, and I don't buy it, especially the part about protecting Seminole from tidal surges.[/color]

It's a bit more complex and sophisticated than just the matter of water simply filtering off the property through elevation and gravity to the south into what was called Little Lake Worth.

You're getting like Tom MawWood, you're starting to believe everything you read.

The drainage system had at its core, the gravity fed canal/pond system flowing south into the area adjacent to the 9th fairway, from which water could then be pumped further south.

The lagoons that exist immediately south of Seminole today didn't exist in 1929.  They were created to provide the exclusive home sites with water access for boating purposes, such that boats could gain access to Little Lake Worth, the Intercoastal waterway and the Atlantic Ocean.

Mother Nature, including tidal surges can't be stopped by a
1', 50 horsepower outflow pump to a single viaduct/canal.

The only way to prevent intrusion of the salt water into the property was to keep the water levels within the property at their HIGHER/HIGHEST levels.  Hence, the pumps would be shut down and water would be prevented from leaving the property when a tidal surge was indicated.

When a tidal surge wasn't indicated, the pumps would activate and draw down the ponds/canals.
This in turn drained the golf course into the canals/ponds, and then south to the outfall pumps.

Noone understands water management in that area like the Florida regulatory agencies that were formed specifically and solely for that purpose.  Today, use of intake and outfall pumps is highly regulated, as are wells, and not a drop of water moves with man's hand, without their approval.[/color]

Water flow in both directions is controlled by pumps.

NO, it's not.
Water flow south is the only water flow controlled by pumps.

There isn't a pump in South Florida that could handle a tidal surge.

Instead of misreading what Brad wrote, you should have consulted me first. [/color]

The fresh water from the artesian well is recirculated through the property.

No, it's not.
It can't be recirculated because it can't be recaptured in a pure form. And, if it was taken from the lakes and reapplied to the golf course, you'd also have to take in the contaminents that came into those ponds from the north.

In many cases in Florida, pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers abound in the canals due to runoff from farmland property, and, as you know, South Florida had an abundance of farm and cattle properties which were developed into residential and commercial properties.  Not to mention the SALT water that you claim was pumped into those ponds/canals  

Water from wells is/can be applied to the golf course through the irrigation system.  From there it finds its way into the soil and canals/ponds and from there it exits south into Little Lake Worth with the aid of outfall pumps.[/color]

The system also has the ability to draw down excess water on the property and pump it off the property to the south which will prevent water to the south of the property from backing up onto Seminole.

NO, that's wrong.
Just the opposite is true.
First, you could never pump enough water south to counter a tidal surge, especially with the limited pumps and egress that Seminole has.
Secondly, when a tidal surge might infiltrate salt water back to Seminole, the key is to keep Seminole filled to the brim with fresh water, that's the barrier that keeps the tidal surge back, not a 1' to 3' pipe with with water pumping through it.

You have so much to learn, and I only have so much time to devote to each one of my patients.[/color]

Obviously the volume produced by that hurricane last year can overwhelm the system and Seminole.

Hurrican Wilma came through fast and dumped a lot of rain in a short time, that's what created Lake Seminole.[/color]

JES II,

Trust me, John Cullum is all wet with his swamp theory.

The next thing he'll be telling you is that Lost Tree was a swamp as well, when in fact it was all dry land/sand.
Just visit Lost Tree and view the pre and post development pictures hanging on the wall.

Besides, why would you believe a man who sneaks on to the property and examines it after midnight ?

[John_Cullum]

Well, where I'm from, it's called a swamp. It has trees, soft ground and standing water.

Canals are usually dug along open ground in a straight line with the soil piled up on either side of the bank. If it was ever that, it has grown over quite a bit.

And it was broad daylight. You want to go right after a hurricane. Things are pretty quiet then. I should have brought my clubs.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Well, where I'm from, it's called a swamp. It has trees, soft ground and standing water.

It's also a very small isolated area where the canal flows to.[/color]

Canals are usually dug along open ground in a straight line with the soil piled up on either side of the bank.

Many, if not most canals in South Florida don't have the excavated dirt piled on the side.  That would prevent surface water from entering them, which is an integral part of their function and purpose.[/color]

If it was ever that, it has grown over quite a bit.

And it was broad daylight. You want to go right after a hurricane.

I'll bet that that's why you thought it was a swamp.

Have you noticed that it gets pretty wet right after a hurricane.  [/color]

Things are pretty quiet then. I should have brought my clubs.


And your SCUBA gear as well  [/color]