[Mike Policano]

Mark, remember when we played Ridgewood.  #6 Center is a 290 yard par 4, nicknamed, Nickle and Dime.  It is slightly uphill to the end of the fairway and the last 60 yards are uphill to a tiny green (25 ft wide?).  the green leans steeply left to right and is well-bunkered.

Cheers

[Mark Chaplin]

Tony - You've got me there.....any clues??

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark
It's one of two courses together about 7 miles due east of Walthamstow.  

 I'm going to feature it in a thread to be called "More evidence of the sheer ******* brilliance of James Braid."

[Adrian_Stiff]

Painswick#1

220 from the front tees and a whopping 224 when you cross the single track road to get to the tips.

At Buda II in over 100+ rounds, none of the 30+ players (including a Walker Cup player) made it near to pin high.

not many drive the 1st @ Painswick Rich. i guess 225 and as uphill as it is must equate to 300 yards, and so the quarry means you effectively need to carry 275... so out of range for 95%. i use to hit a 6 iron and try and hit it a bit left, the vision is a bit better from here and its an 80 yard wedge or something. For a hole of 224 yards par 4 its amazing how often your looking at a six footer left lip to save your 4!

[Adrian_Stiff]

I love short par 4's, but I had never built one under 300 yards until we started working in Australia, where everything is measured in meters and I paid even less attention to the distances than usual.  As a result we came up with three great par 4's under 300 yards on those two courses ... the 4th and 12th at Barnbougle Dunes and the 2nd at St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta).  The fourth at Barnbougle is probably my favorite of the three but I would be happy to include any of them on a course I was building.

I do think there is a strong prejudice for modern designers against building par-4's under 300 yards (350 for some today) or par-5's under 500 yards in today's era of longball.  This despite the fact that some of the best holes in the world fall into the category.

I think the prejudice is less stronger than it was Tom and may even become trendy, if it hasn't already. I think its nice to have a hole where a midhandicapper can clatter a good one occasionally and make the putt for an eagle. As you say they often fall into the best hole category and can sometimes help the routing on some difficult land parcels. There is no doubt that 10 years ago and beyond these holes were rare on the Nicklaus-Palmer-Jones modern designs and there did seem a view against them. A number of TPC courses more recently seem to have a hole in the back nine as a short 4, for TV reasons this has the potential for drama and good viewing, much like a 5 hole. I like the short 4.

[Ed Tilley]

I love short par 4's, but I had never built one under 300 yards until we started working in Australia, where everything is measured in meters and I paid even less attention to the distances than usual.  As a result we came up with three great par 4's under 300 yards on those two courses ... the 4th and 12th at Barnbougle Dunes and the 2nd at St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta).  The fourth at Barnbougle is probably my favorite of the three but I would be happy to include any of them on a course I was building.

I do think there is a strong prejudice for modern designers against building par-4's under 300 yards (350 for some today) or par-5's under 500 yards in today's era of longball.  This despite the fact that some of the best holes in the world fall into the category.

I think the prejudice is less stronger than it was Tom and may even become trendy, if it hasn't already. I think its nice to have a hole where a midhandicapper can clatter a good one occasionally and make the putt for an eagle. As you say they often fall into the best hole category and can sometimes help the routing on some difficult land parcels. There is no doubt that 10 years ago and beyond these holes were rare on the Nicklaus-Palmer-Jones modern designs and there did seem a view against them. A number of TPC courses more recently seem to have a hole in the back nine as a short 4, for TV reasons this has the potential for drama and good viewing, much like a 5 hole. I like the short 4.

I think the reason that you don't see many really short par 4's on Tour is that they don't make great strokeplay holes. When they play European Tour events at the Belfry almost nobody tries to drive the 10th green - it's a boring hole. At the Ryder Cup loads of people went for it and it's a great hole. They're great matchplay holes, and great members holes, but tour players will hit iron in the fairway and trust their wedge game.

[Tim Gavrich]

How about #15 at French Creek 292 yards & #13 at Kingsley 285.

Both are fantastic.

John Foley--
What makes 15 at French Creek fantastic, in your opinion?  To be honest, I think it's the most over-the-top hole of that length I've ever seen.  It's not fun to be in perfect position and know that no matter what, your ball is probably going to end up 20 feet down the slope and that you're going to have an impossible shot to a green that is too narrow and undulating and guarded appallingly excessively.

Needless to say, I'm not a fan, but my opinion of the hole may be based on a poorly placed pin.

[Philip Gawith]

Tom - it is interesting of the three short two-shotters you mention down under - only the 4th at Barnbougle felt a driveable proposition. In the case of the 2nd at SAB, maybe it was the fact that you could not (as I recall) see the green off the tee that you discouraged you taking it on. And I think the 12th felt a riskier proposition (as I recall, pretty terminal if you were down on the right?)

I agree with the 4th at St Enodoc....I think I had beginners luck the first time i  played it (but hit it OB on the right second time).

[Philip Gawith]

Here are a few miscellaneous pics of some of the holes mentioned:


- a shot looking back to the tee on the 10th at Royal Melbourne West. The prominent bunker in the foreground is roughly the target from the tee - the green is behind and slightly left.

IMG]http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/royalmelbournewest/australiatrip179.jpg[/IMG]



....and a shot of the fourth green at St Enodoc showing the narrow target, and proximity of OB on the right.

[Brad Tufts]

#18 at Prestwick is about 275...but a generally nondescript hole after what precedes it.

#12 at Palos Verdes Golf Club, 255 par 4.  This G. Thomas original plays over a deep barranca, the carry being potentially 180 yards, but also about 40-50 feet uphill.  from here, the hole doglegs right around a small stand of pines to a tiny, tiny green (maybe 25 feet by 20 feet), surrounded by 3 or 4 bunkers.  The scale of the greensite forces strange bunker and pitch shots of 10 feet and under.  The hole is even made prettier by the unique (and long) green footbridge up over the barranca.  An amazing hole in a tight spot that fits this course perfectly.

[John Foley]

Tim,

The reason I like it is all the options it presents. You can play short and rigth short and left, long and left or riht at the pin long and right. Three of those shots are very easy tee shots w/ a more difficult approach while the last requires a perfect drive.

My only complant is going for the green and a slight push right is very very tough recovery.

I don't remember the green being that severe, but it is small.

If Dan H is around and has some pics to show that would be great.

[Jason Topp]

I love short par 4's, but I had never built one under 300 yards until we started working in Australia, where everything is measured in meters and I paid even less attention to the distances than usual.  As a result we came up with three great par 4's under 300 yards on those two courses ... the 4th and 12th at Barnbougle Dunes and the 2nd at St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta).  The fourth at Barnbougle is probably my favorite of the three but I would be happy to include any of them on a course I was building.

I do think there is a strong prejudice for modern designers against building par-4's under 300 yards (350 for some today) or par-5's under 500 yards in today's era of longball.  This despite the fact that some of the best holes in the world fall into the category.

MacKenzie as well as (I believe) some of the other golden age architects discussed holes of this length as not being ideal.  I vaguely recall a discussion that, at this length, one can reach the green even with a poor tee shot.  This view is completely inconsistent with Mackenzie's other belief that the Old Course was the ideal golf course.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tim,
Gil has built a great short par 4 at French Creek #15, IMHO.

The key is where you put your tee shot.  Many folks tend to either try to hit the green or put their tee shots up on the top level.  

That can[\i] work, but a better play is down in the lower fairway.  This leaves you with an uphill shot, but with a full wedge that will stop.

If you hit the wrong spot in the upper fairway, you can end up with an almost impossible chip.

To me, it's a very exciting hole that gives a good shot at birdie.  Of course, it can also throw a 6 or 7 at you if you don't play it smart.

[Doug Siebert]

#13 at Lahinch is what, about 265?  Plays into the prevailing wind though so it is no pushover.  And I don't think the pathway for rolling it on is more than a few feet wide and I recall the bunker to the front left looking pretty nasty (I hit a massive push about 70 yards right of pin high almost back into the 12th fairway, so that bunker wasn't in play for me last time I was there )

#18 at North Berwick West.  How could this one be left out, it is about 260, nothing defends the green, a mere long iron or fairway wood unless the wind is in your face.  Its just easy enough that you really feel like you ought to make a 3 there every time.  Unless you are a slicer in which case I hear the car park to the right is a concern off the tee.

#9 at TOC.  Only 270 from tees most of us have to play it from, and with only a small pot bunker center right a bit short of the green for defense.  Not a particularly great hole, but on the greatest course in the world it deserves a mention.

There are a plenty more where these came from in the UK, of course...

[Ari Techner]

#13 Franklin Hills CC
about 290y from the back tees.  
TINY green with a very steep falloff about 25+ feel to the right and long and  very deep bunkers short and left.  The green is extremely small, fast and very slanted.  The tee shot goes from an elevated tee down into a little valley then back up to the green.  The legend has it that only 1 person has ever hit and held the green here.  This is just a spectacular hole I have made many birdies on it but many 5s and 6s too.  

[Tim Bert]

Ross Creek Landing #4

This is one of the Bear Trace courses in TN.  The hole plays 292 from the tips; the tee I play is only about 250.  It's all uphill, so it plays a bit longer than the yardage suggests.  There are several buners in the line of flight if you are going for the green, so it takes some great precision (or a good bit of luck in my case) to reach the green.



Of course, I'm a bit biased here.  This is where my drive ended up.  I made the putt for my first and only par 4 eagle.

[Andrew Hastie]

The 11th at Swinley Forest is a solid hole, 285yards from the back tees.
The hole is a little uphill and semi blind from the back tee with a sea of heather up the left side and fairway bunkers  up the right.The green is slightly elevated.

I would send a couple of photos but I haven't worked out how to do that yet?

[Andrew Hastie]

The 3rd is 290 from the blues and 288 from the whites but angle is much easier from the forward tee.You must work the ball right to left from the backs to drive the green.

[Eric Franzen]

I would send a couple of photos but I haven't worked out how to do that yet?

Register an account at www.flickr.com.
Follow their instructions for uploading pictures.

Click on the uploaded photo so that it is displayed on an individual web page.
Right click on the picture you wish to display and choose Properties.
Copy the address/URL including the extension .jpg.
Paste the adress on this board between the tags [ img ] [ /img ] - but with the spaces before an after img and /img removed.
Repeat the last two steps for each individual picture that you want to post here.

[Ian Andrew]

Sean,

What an 18th hole. Thanks.

Ian

[Matthew Hunt]

Currently my faverite is the 1st at the Annesly Links at RCD. I have had 3 birdies and 3 pars in last 7 play of the hole.

[Phil McDade]

My father-in-law's little 9-hole course in southwestern Minnesota has a very good closing par 4 (9th hole -- sorry, no photos). 248 from the regular tees and probably all of 255 from the back. Elevated tee to a fairly broad fairway in a small valley, with trees down the entire right side and OB the entire left side. The green is small, narrow, crowned and flanked on both left and right sides by two pairs of very large bunkers, with a tiny hidden pot bunker on the backside. The option is pretty simple -- an iron off the tee to the valley, leaving you with a short uphill pitch, or try to slot a drive through the bunkers onto the green. I've putted for eagle there, and had a triple-bogey after yanking one OB. The options make it fun, yes, but its position on the course as the last hole adds to its dimensions, as one can play conversatively or gamble depending on where your match is.

[Andrew Hastie]

A couple of Photos from Swinley Forests 3rd hole.290 yards from back tee,first photo.And 288 from the members in the,second photo.A fun short par4, on a great golf course.

"Thanks Eric for the advice on attaching photos."

[Garland Bayley]

...290 yards from back tee,first photo.And 288 from the members ...

Is this a tyop?

[Mark_Fine]

Here is an article on short fours that Tom Ferrell and I published in Golf Tips.  We're trying to help educate the masses  

http://www.finegolfdesign.com/articles/golf_tips_6_05.pdf

Mark

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