[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom, its an opinion. I just happen to think a lot of Pebble is only average, most courses have a few duller holes and perhaps almost any course you can argue the various positive aspects of an individual holes merits anywhere. I think the PB history carries PB along quite a bit, as for holes like 1, 3, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.... I've played many holes better than these,  

Adrian, not to pick on you, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone will list the holes that they are indifferent about, and in Adrian's case he says he's played better holes. That's fine. So have I. BUT, do we igonre the greatness of the others? It's like a vintage Ferrari. Sure it's tempramental, not as reliable as an Accord, not the most comfortable car in the world and damn expensive to care for. But oh the car as a whole! Who wouldn't take it?!? There are very, very, very few courses that don't have a few "weak" holes. Don't throw out the baby w/ the bath water is all I'm saying.

David, I think overall PB is pretty good by normal judging, but In my opinion there are many greater courses and that conclusion is drawn from evaluating PB as a whole. I never got to play Cypress Point, the bits I saw looked good, but I once saw it from the road.

[tlavin]

I think it is inarguable that Pebble Beach is a terrific golf course despite having a handful of mundane holes.  The location, the mystique, the history and the spectacular nature of a different handful of holes all combine into an undeniably fabulous golf experience.

I think the cost is absolutely irrelevant in evaluating the course.  I say this for several reasons.  First, if one is to evaluate a golf course, you're evaluating the course, not the business operation.  Does anybody "diss" Sebonack on this site because it costs half a fricking billion to join?  Nope.  Does anybody carp about the tens of millions of dollars that are used to keep Augusta in spectacular shape for six months of the year?  Not really.

Furthermore, the cost must be irrelevant because the tee times are always full.  I was there last week and each afternoon, I sat for a couple hours, slurping great California cabernet and watched foursome after foursome, $2,000 a pop, play the 18th hole.  Very few played it particularly well, but everybody left the green with a grin.

Do I wish Pebble was $300 cheaper to play?  Sure, I do for myself and for every other golfer, but they can't keep the place open if the green fee goes down and last time I checked, we live in a capitalist country.  

[Adrian_Stiff]

Terry, they have pitched the green fee exactly right if they are consistently full, as you say each come off with a grin. If Augusta was more open to the public I guess it would be $1000 with plenty of takers I suspect.

[ed_getka]

Terry,
   You can't seriously mean to say that Pebble can't afford to be open if they charge less than $400/round. (is it $500 now?) What is Pebble's loss leader if they need to be charging >$400/round to stay open?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Terry,
   You can't seriously mean to say that Pebble can't afford to be open if they charge less than $400/round. (is it $500 now?) What is Pebble's loss leader if they need to be charging >$400/round to stay open?

If you have a product you need to sale that product for the maximum price the market will accept. PB is a product.

[JESII]

Tom Huckaby,

You may well be correct about my view of Pebble. I think I am pretty good at looking at a course from different perspectives, but those two days did not give me that chance. Looking forward to another go with   hopefully open eyes.



Ed Getka,

Pine Valley and Merion obviously.

Huntingdon Valley and Philly Country next.

Hidden Creek, Aronimink, Philly Cricket (old), Saucon Valley (old) and Wilmington South would probably come in a bit behind Pebble, but if given 10 rounds to break up I might go with 6 Pebble and 4 from any of these in the last group.

[JESII]

Could Pebble charge twice as much if they allowed half the play?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Huckaby,

You may well be correct about my view of Pebble. I think I am pretty good at looking at a course from different perspectives, but those two days did not give me that chance. Looking forward to another go with   hopefully open eyes.

Sully - I have zero doubt you can look at a course from these different perspectives.  I just think you had a mission in mind that previous trip.  So yes, another go is in order.

 

[ed_getka]

JES,
   I've only played at Rolling Green in your area, so it is interesting to hear there are that many courses you would rank above Pebble.
   Haved you been to Pasatiempo? What order (personal preference) would you put the courses in from the Bay Area and Monterey?

[Mark_Fine]

I have close to 30 rounds played at Pebble Beach and I have looked forward to playing everyone of them.  It gets better each time I play it which is a true sign for me of a great design.  I am not far from Philadelphia but other than Merion and Pine Valley, there is nothing close to it back this way that I would look forward to playing again as much as Pebble Beach right after I finished a round there.  

[Bob_Huntley]

Ed:

Understood.

But you haven't played Pebble, correct?  If you have, I can't see how you'd make that statement about the greens.  

This is going to sound like blasphemy... but I think you have it backwards... and Pebble's is actually MORE interesting, in the putting!

Cypress 9:  two flattish halves separated by a huge tier on which no ball will stay.  The tier must be respected for sure... but once you are on the proper half - which happens darn near all the time on approach to a front pin, most of the time approaching a back pin, the putts are not all that great shakes.  Yes a putt from the lower level up to the top is a weird and fun one for sure... but outside of that... well... Any putt on the proper half is a birdie opportunity, and I can say that from experience.  

Pebble 9:  very subtle throughout (as as all the greens there), exceedingly difficult to figure out... should break toward the ocean but often doesn't, confoundingly so.  No way is it true that any ball on the green in a birdie opportunity.. not even close.... even besides the subtlety, the green is pretty big....

To me the subtlety of Pebble trumps the in your face nature of Cypress - regarding these two greens.

I will grant that CPC's green is more interesting in the approach  - good lord it's unique sitting on the dune, with those two halfs - but hell it should be given the hole is so short.  Putting that kinda green on 9 Pebble at 450+ yards would be sadistic!

But mainly, you have the putting here all wrong.  Methinks we need to get you to Pebble so you can see for yourself.  

One further bottom line:  I have birdied CPC #9 twice, in 5 plays.  I believe I could play 9 Pebble the rest of my life and never make a 3... I'm 0 for 12 or so there.  I know where I'd take the birdie... and it goes without saying where I'd take the par.... I think this is what Mike is getting at.

TH

I must say that Tom has it right here. I played Cypress yesterday, pin on the top tier at No. 9 and parred the hole. Last week with it on the bottom I birdied it. Even with a  younger swing, I would find it difficult to do that at the 9th at Pebble.

I was fortunate that for many a year Pebble was not ruinous to my pocket and  I enjoyed every day played there. Truth be known, my enjoyment would be greatly diminished at the current tariff.

Bob

[Sean_A]

I was fortunate that for many a year Pebble was not ruinous to my pocket and  I enjoyed every day played there. Truth be known, my enjoyment would be greatly diminished at the current tariff.

Bob

Bob has encapsulated my opinion.  I have yet to play Pebble and likely never will.  I am one of the sorry chaps that looks at golf as recreation.  As such, the bang for my buck is very important.  Afterall, there are limitless bangs, but precious few bucks.

I know that if I could only play one course in California it wouldn't be Pebble!

Ciao

[PThomas]

Hi Huck!

what I meant by my comment is that while I think Pebble is a great golf course, PD is an even better one, I think, in terms of quality golf holes

in other words, while Pebble has holes like 1, I don't think PD has any holes like that!

[JESII]

Ed Getka,

Only played Pebble and Spyglass. Both during that same trip with one practice round and one medal play round. While the first five holes at Spyglass really blew me away, the rest was "just good". I would prefer Pebble 7 or 8 out of 10 between the two.


Mark Fine,

Such is life.

I was going to ask, and this is reason enough to do so...does the aura ever wear off? Does the ocean ever become less intoxicating?

[Bob_Huntley]

I was going to ask, and this is reason enough to do so...does the aura ever wear off? Does the ocean ever become less intoxicating?

JES11,

No, it never does.

Every time I go out on either the Dunes or Shore course and get along the ocean holes I feel blessed. I am not, nor even near to being a religieuse but I do offer a praise of thanks to someone for  the chance to savor it.

Bob

[JESII]

Thanks Bob,

Tough to know from the confines of the Philadelphia suburbs...but it's not hard to imagine.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
Those who know me know I am very lucky to get to play lots of great golf courses.  Is Pebble architecturally the best golf course out there - Not in my opinion.  But the excitement to play there never wears off.  Fortunately, I have been a guest for almost all of my rounds out there so the $$$$ fee doesn't impact my thinking like it does for many others.  

Are there a few weak holes - it depends on what you define as weak.  Pebble is just one of those courses where I relax and thank the Lord I have a golf club in my hands and that someone is allowing me to play golf there.  How many courses have you played where you get to the 8th hole and there are four groups on the tee and you hardly mind a bit.  I feel sorry for those who are too caught up in their golf game to not be able to kick back and relax on the edge of the cliff and take in the views and the wildlife.  I've made dozens of cell phone calls from that spot (jokingly complaining to buddies that I am out on a golf course and there is a 40 minute wait on the 8th tee).  They feel very sorry for me until I tell them what course I am playing.  Never once has someone said better you than me.  It just doesn't get much more beautiful then out there on the point.  

I've played Pebble in three and a half hours (first off) and in six and a half hours.  With a good group of guys in your foursome, both extremes can be fantastic and this comes from a guy who hates to play slow.  

Despite all the "architectural flaws" that have been pointed out a zillion times on this site and others, it is a Doak 10 in my book.  

Side note:  As much as I love it, I was not one of the guys who voted it above Pine Valley.  On my personal list of favorite courses in this country, I have about a dozen or so courses that I give a Doak 10.   Yes Golf Digest forces people to numerically rank them, but for me all those 10's are as good as golf gets (that I have seen) on this planet!    

[PThomas]

I was going to ask, and this is reason enough to do so...does the aura ever wear off? Does the ocean ever become less intoxicating?

JES11,

No, it never does.

Every time I go out on either the Dunes or Shore course and get along the ocean holes I feel blessed. I am not, nor even near to being a religieuse but I do offer a praise of thanks to someone for  the chance to savor it.

Bob

never does for me either......and a tip of the hat to Sir Bob too for not taking it for granted

the sound, the smell, the wind off of it, etc., etc............God I love being by the ocean!

[Tom Huckaby]

Hi Huck!

what I meant by my comment is that while I think Pebble is a great golf course, PD is an even better one, I think, in terms of quality golf holes

in other words, while Pebble has holes like 1, I don't think PD has any holes like that!

I love Pacific Dunes, truly I do.  Hell I'm risking marital life and limb to go up there again - my third trip up - in a few months.  And it's Pacific I look forward to playing the most.

It's just not Pebble Beach.  It's not a better golf course by any possible measurement.  

Paul - you have played Pebble Beach, right?  If you have, and you can still make this statement, well... I'll just say to each his own.

I gather by your statement re #1 though you are saying PD has no "mundane" holes, as several have been called at Pebble?  Well, I could name a few... but rather than focus on the negative, I think where this turns is on the positive.  Say I grant that that's true (which I don't, but for the sake of argument let's say I do).  Pebble's still better, because Pacific doesn't have any holes quite as glorious as 6-7-8-9-10-18 Pebble.  Sans crazy wind, it doesn't have any holes as maddeingly difficult as 14 Pebble.  And I know you purists like to keep things to "design" and thus discount this... but it's also not nearly as awe-inspiring in terms of scenery, nor does it have even close to the history that Pebble does.

Sorry my friend - on this one we shall have to agree to disagree...and rather strenuously so on my behalf.

And I swear I mean this as no knock on Pacific Dunes, which is a fantastic golf course by any measure.  As I say, it's just not Pebble Beach.  But one could say that about nearly every course on this planet.

TH

[Jon Spaulding]

I'd rather birdie #9 at Pebble because it's a more challenging hole than is #9 at CP. The 2nd shots on each hole are legendary, but hitting the green with a long iron on a windy day into PB9 is a) very hard and b) more memorable.

Having said that.....I'd trade a 7 on CP #9 for a 3 on PB #9 any day, if it meant I was playing the other 17 holes.

[JESII]

Tom H,

Your post #68 seems to segregate the golf holes at Pebble from the experience at Pebble.

I have never argued with your position that they are intertwined because I believe it as well, but if you are going to make the case that "It's just not Pebble Beach.  It's not a better golf course by any possible measurement."[/i]...I have to wonder if this doesn't open that can of worms wide. I'm not suggesting Pacific is better because I have not been there, but I will tie back into Mark Fine's explanation of his love of Pebble that seemed almost completely "experience" driven. Is it the experience at Pebble that makes the die-hard golf nut praise the course so well or is it a combination of the experience and the course that does it?  

Could a lesser course on that exact same property generate the same feelings?

Are there 10 shots at Pebble that really blow you away?

[Tom Huckaby]

JES:

I only segregate experience and golf holes in response to the purists... To me they are very intertwined at ANY golf course and to except out what they would call "experience" issues is foolish.

But re Pebble Beach specifically, my argument is that the experience can be fantastic - rather otherworldly, as shown by the fact a seasoned veteran of the place like Mr. Huntley never tires of it - but even if you want to keep it just to the golf holes, Pebble still holds up its head.

And yes, it is superior to Pacific Dunes by any measure.  I'd rather not debate that too strenuously -as dammit I do love Pacific Dunes, and that debate just gets into negatives that are so nitpicking as to be unfair to the Oregon course - so perhaps we can just leave that be.

But to answer your questions...

I'd say it's a combination of experience and golf course that gives anyone their opinion of any course - any right-thinking assessor, that is - and at Pebble it's just crystallized.  The experience can be SO great - or on the flip side so awful - that strong opinions do get formed.

But no, a lesser course on the same sort of property would not generate the same feelings.  Scenic views are one thing - a part of the puzzle - but they are not the whole - far, far from it.  This is where Mucci falls off the track (among other places).  

10 shots at Pebble that blow me away?

1. Tee shot on 1 - only second to #1 TOC in terms of excitement and ass-puckering (though I hear Merion beats it).  One cannot step on that tee and not feel awed.  The shot itself isn't easy either... oh one can just bunt out a 3iron or something, but that's quite wussy, and feeling the eyes of all those tourists, well... It blows me away.

2. Drive on 3 - very strategic, very difficult - bite off as much as you can chew over the trees, or play safe to the right.. but don't go too far right, the shot from the rough is very tough....

3. Approach into 3, from the fairway.  Gorgeous view, difficult small green, very inspiring.

4.  Tee shot on 4... many ways to do it, similar to one.. don't go right, don't go left, don't go in bunker... should be so easy but is anything but....

5.  Approach to 4 - tiny green, dammit don't miss it... again should be easy, but very inspiring....

6.  Any putt on 4, one of the world's most dastardly greens...ask Tom Kite....

7.  Tee shot on 5.  Ocean right, simple to go left but does one want to be that kind of a wuss?  Love it.

8.  2nd shot on 6... countless ways to do... cut over cliff?  Play safe?

9.  Tee shot on 7... no explanation necessary

10.  2nd shot on 8... no explanation necessary.

There's 10, and we haven't even reached the 9th hole.

It's that kind of golf course.

TH

[JESII]

Thanks Tom.

I too hate the course versus course debate as well, and was not asking for that. I don't think it offers any insight.

A 12:30 tee time on a summer day at Merion would probably top the list on the "pucker-scale". Never been to St. Andrews, but I cannot imagine a comparison. Who in the world would have the guts to ask 75 people to put down there soup spoons and quiet down so they can tee off?  

[Tom Huckaby]

That's what I've heard about Merion....

 

At St. Andrews it's like this:

 - the majesty of it all... the sense of place... the undeniable feeling of those who went before you...

 - knowing you are feeling the gaze not only of hundreds of tourists, but the watchful eyes of the R&A members behind the window....

 - the fact it SHOULD be the world's easiest tee shot - good lord the fairway has to be 100+ yards wide and there's no reason to do anything but just slam one out there... but wait a second, there's OB right...

Put it all together and it's a world-class butt tightener.

 

[Andy Doyle]

There's 10, and we haven't even reached the 9th hole.

Tee shot on 9
Approach shot on 9
Tee shot on 10
Approach shot on 10 .........

Andy

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