The problem with hosting a tournament

[Patrick_Mucci]

is that the course is rarely returned to its pre-tournament configuration.

Thus, members and guests will be presented with a golf course beyond their ability.

A course that will become more difficult and less fun for members and guests.

Rumor has it that Newport will NOT return its fairway widths to their pre Open widths.

What's the thinking behind this ?

Is it to present, mostly to outsiders, a more diabolical test ?
To show outsiders how difficult the golf course can be ?

Is it the: "My course is harder than your course syndrome" ?

Newport is/was one of the most enjoyable golf courses you could ever play, a special architectural presentation.

Why do clubs that alter their golf courses in order to host tournaments for the best golfers in the world, leave them in that condition for their memberships ?

Memberships where the majority of the golfers are medium to high handicap golfers ?

[Kyle Harris]

is that the course is rarely returned to its pre-tournament configuration.

Thus, members and guests will be presented with a golf course beyond their ability.

A course that will become more difficult and less fun for members and guests.

Rumor has it that Newport will NOT return its fairway widths to their pre Open widths.

What's the thinking behind this ?

Is it to present, mostly to outsiders, a more diabolical test ?
To show outsiders how difficult the golf course can be ?

Is it the: "My course is harder than your course syndrome" ?

Newport is/was one of the most enjoyable golf courses you could ever play, a special architectural presentation.

Why do clubs that alter their golf courses in order to host tournaments for the best golfers in the world, leave them in that condition for their memberships ?

Memberships where the majority of the golfers are medium to high handicap golfers ?

Is the delay attributable to grow-in season? You don't cut in new fairway lines in August in New England.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle,

NO

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

NO

Pat,

There may be an agronomic answer that isn't necessarily apparent.

Perhaps the membership found the widths acceptable and also the reduced acreage is saving them some money.

Both seem equally as reasonable and possible as your assertions.

[John Foley]

Patrick,

Do you think that courses who host tourneys (or do you mean majors?) believe that the changes which occur to have the tourney are permanent?

We're Winged Foot or Shinnecock changed so significantly that their memberships complained?

Oak Hill is back to it's pre-PGA config.

[Phil_the_Author]

Bethpage Black has retained the Open fairway corridor widths. Some love it, others (especially those with PhD's attached to their name  ) hate it, while very few are indifferent to it and first-timers are so stunned by the course they don't even think about it.

[Lloyd_Cole]

What's the thinking behind this ?

Is it to present, mostly to outsiders, a more diabolical test ?
To show outsiders how difficult the golf course can be ?

Is it the: "My course is harder than your course syndrome" ?

I think this is probably it. Sad, but true. It is, I think, just a natural extension of the 'our greens are faster than yours' mindset, and obviously it's only available to an elite group, so why not use the newfound leverage?

[Lloyd_Cole]

What's the thinking behind this ?

Is it to present, mostly to outsiders, a more diabolical test ?
To show outsiders how difficult the golf course can be ?

Is it the: "My course is harder than your course syndrome" ?

I think this is probably it. Sad, but true. It is, I think, just a natural extension of the 'our greens are faster than yours' mindset, and obviously it's only available to an elite group, so why not use the newfound leverage? As many here know - at Hoylake the debate is on the ordering of the holes, do they retain the Open routing or revert to the original. Not may seem to prefer the Open routing for Amateur golf, but the debate continues, I believe.

[Jim Nugent]

A related question: are there any courses that can challenge the pro's and remain playable to members, without undergoing great changes?  Do they change TOC much for the British Open, other than extending the tees?  

[JohnV]

If some major golf organization thinks that this is the way the course should play who are the members to think that they know better and have it put back the way it was before?

This was one reason I was glad the Pumpkin Ridge never got a US Open.  I knew that once they spent the money to narrow the fairways (remove bent fairways and replace with rye rough) they'd never put it back the way it was.

[Sean Leary]

A related question: are there any courses that can challenge the pro's and remain playable to members, without undergoing great changes?  Do they change TOC much for the British Open, other than extending the tees?  

I don't believe so unless weather is the primary factor..

[JohnV]

A related question: are there any courses that can challenge the pro's and remain playable to members, without undergoing great changes?  Do they change TOC much for the British Open, other than extending the tees?  

I don't believe so unless weather is the primary factor..

They narrowed the landing area on  #17 at TOC quite a bit in 2005 for the Open.  I don't know if they re-expanded it or not.

[Adam Clayman]

People want to play the course the pros play.

Diabolical? I don't think so.

Showing outsiders? What courses membership isn't secure in their own selves?

As with the others mentioned, Pebble Beach returns it's fairway width. Prairie Dunes returned them also.

Rumors?
Rarely?
 Where is Pat Mucci and who stole his computer?

[Jim Franklin]

We are hosting a tournament so we can get some of the improvements we want done paid for by the Tour. They are making some changes to make the course longer so the pros can say they played x yards, but I don't think they will play it all the way back. They certainly won't make it harder on the greens as we are supposed to slow them down for the Tournament which is a shame. If someone tears up the course the first round, I hope they speed up the greens in a hurry. At least let them play it the way the members do.

We are giving up the course during the best time of year to play which irritates me. I know other courses in the area will allow us to play, but if I wanted to play another course I would have joined that club instead. All in all, I am not thrilled about having the Tournament there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

There may be an agronomic answer that isn't necessarily apparent.

Kyle,

There isn't an agronomic answer, or even a question.
Newport doesn't have a fairway irrigation system and is close to the sea.[/color]

Perhaps the membership found the widths acceptable and also the reduced acreage is saving them some money.

They just spent 7-8 million on the inside of their clubhouse.
I'm pretty sure that money isn't an issue at Newport.[/color]

Both seem equally as reasonable and possible as your assertions.

No, they don't, and they're at odds with the facts.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Do you think that courses who host tourneys (or do you mean majors?) believe that the changes which occur to have the tourney are permanent?

That's a decision that each club makes, and so far, club after club goes that route.[/color]

We're Winged Foot or Shinnecock changed so significantly that their memberships complained?

Yes.[/color]

Oak Hill is back to it's pre-PGA config.


I'm not familiar with Oak Hills pre and post tournament configurations, but, what makes you so sure that everything has been returned to the pre-tournament configuration ?[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

You can take my remarks to the bank.

[JESII]

A couple points to note...my points in bold colors in case you are unfamiliar with this technique.

is that the course is rarely returned to its pre-tournament configuration.

Thus, members and guests will be presented with a golf course beyond their ability.

A course that will become more difficult and less fun for members and guests.

this notion flies in the face of the wide held GCA.com thesis that wider fairway brings more trouble into play. How dare you?[/color]


Rumor has it that Newport will NOT return its fairway widths to their pre Open widths.

Could be a sign of a desire for future tournaments, and as such the club thinks it makes sense from an overall course intrusion perspective to leave as is rather than growing in and out every X number of years.[/color]

What's the thinking behind this ?

They're not the first![/color]

Is it to present, mostly to outsiders, a more diabolical test ?
To show outsiders how difficult the golf course can be ?

Is it the: "My course is harder than your course syndrome" ?

Newport is/was one of the most enjoyable golf courses you could ever play, a special architectural presentation.

Well, is it? Or was it?[/color]

Why do clubs that alter their golf courses in order to host tournaments for the best golfers in the world, leave them in that condition for their memberships ?

Because they are ready to get back to playing their golf course. [/color]

Memberships where the majority of the golfers are medium to high handicap golfers ?

Patrick, is this an exageration?[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

is that the course is rarely returned to its pre-tournament configuration.

Thus, members and guests will be presented with a golf course beyond their ability.

A course that will become more difficult and less fun for members and guests.

this notion flies in the face of the wide held GCA.com thesis that wider fairway brings more trouble into play. How dare you?[/color]

 

Rumor has it that Newport will NOT return its fairway widths to their pre Open widths.

Could be a sign of a desire for future tournaments, and as such the club thinks it makes sense from an overall course intrusion perspective to leave as is rather than growing in and out every X number of years.[/color]

It's doubtful that Newport will be seeking major tournaments in the near to distant future, but, there is an indirect USGA connection.[/color]

What's the thinking behind this ?

They're not the first![/color]

That doesn't explain the rationale[/color]

Is it to present, mostly to outsiders, a more diabolical test ?
To show outsiders how difficult the golf course can be ?

Is it the: "My course is harder than your course syndrome" ?

Newport is/was one of the most enjoyable golf courses you could ever play, a special architectural presentation.

Well, is it? Or was it?[/color]

It was, but, the experience will be diminished.[/color]

Why do clubs that alter their golf courses in order to host tournaments for the best golfers in the world, leave them in that condition for their memberships ?

Because they are ready to get back to playing their golf course. [/color]

That doesn't make sense.
Why wouldn't they want their golf course back to the configuration that was more agreeable to their games ?
A more user friendly configuration.[/color]

Memberships where the majority of the golfers are medium to high handicap golfers ?

Patrick, is this an exageration?[/color]

What do you think ?

I think it may be an understatement.[/color]

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

Fairway irrigation has nothing to do with it. Grass can not regrow itself in New England over the winter save for a few weeks in September and early October, which I would imagine is high time for play there.

No super in his right mind would recut old corridors during high traffic time periods. Most re-corridoring is done during the first few cuts of spring where there's a full growing season ahead and sub-normal conditioning anyway. Having to deal with scalped grass with winter coming up is suicide.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong in your analysis, but there may not have been a chance to regain the old widths as of yet.

I say wait and see.

[Tommy Williamsen]

We are hosting a Nationwide tour event next year.  Many of us are not excited about it.  The money we get will hardly pay for the wear and tear on the course of players and gallery.  They also would like us to  take some slope out of one of our greens which would ruin the hole. And it is over Memorial Day weekend.

On another note.  My other club hostsed a college event this past fall and the Host college players cmae out and spent a day filling divots.  good stuff.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle Harris,

You're not getting it.
The decision has been made and it has NOTHING to do with agronomics, maintainance issues or money.

[Kyle Harris]

Rumor has it that Newport will NOT return its fairway widths to their pre Open widths.

Pat,

I took the fact that it is a rumor to mean that there is some doubt as to whether or not this will be the case for the future.

[John Foley]

Patrick,

Do you think that courses who host tourneys (or do you mean majors?) believe that the changes which occur to have the tourney are permanent?

That's a decision that each club makes, and so far, club after club goes that route.[/color]

We're Winged Foot or Shinnecock changed so significantly that their memberships complained?

Yes.[/color]



Are the complaints specifically fw width or others?


Oak Hill is back to it's pre-PGA config.


I'm not familiar with Oak Hills pre and post tournament configurations, but, what makes you so sure that everything has been returned to the pre-tournament configuration ?
[/color]


The last time I was there I commented that the rough was very managable and was told that it was kept down siginificantly since the PGA. As for fw widths, I did not pace them off, but it did not seem as narrow. I can't say for sure though.

BTW - I do agree that narrowoing the corridors for a tourney and not bringing them back is a bad decision.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle Harris,

Sometimes I use that phrase and it's probably misleading.
Usually, it means that I have reliable information.

John Foley,

I don't think a membership speaks as one voice.

There are factions within all memberships, and dissent lies within all of those factions under one form or another.

Unanimity is also absent, even within the factions.

Some members just flat out oppose lending or giving up their golf course because it deprives them of the use.

Others oppose it because of the damage done to the golf course.

Others oppose it due to the lengthening of the rough going into the event and the inability to reduce it immediately after the tournament.

Others oppose it due to the fairway lines being constricted, going into the tournament, and not being returned to their former lines immediately thereafter, and beyond.

Complaints come in a mixed bag.

With respect to Oak Hill, while I'm TOTALLY unfamiliar with it, I'd wager that the fairway widths are narrower today then they were 3-4 years prior to the tournament.

Some of Merion's fairways remained constricted many, many years after the Open, as do Shinnecocks.

The problem is, when clubs get into the rota, they never seem to restore their fairway lines to original or intended widths.

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