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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2006, 10:53:16 PM »
Bay Harbor and Lighthouse sound In MD may be his best two sites. Half Moon Bay is 50 acres shy of being a good site.  He had to fit some holes in very awkwardly.  It is a shame becaus it is very good.  The finishing holes are wonderful.  Bay harbor has three very different nine.  My favorite may be the Quarry.  Lighthouse Sound is on thet Assawoman Bay across from Ocean City.  I was disappointed in the course.  It just doesn;t seem to flow well.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2006, 11:07:17 PM »
Brad Klein -

Are you around on this thread?  Given that you are in the New England area and your worldliness of golf courses, I'm interested to know if you've played Newport National (and your opinion of it.)  I've stated a few times that I really enjoyed it.  There seem to be a few others around that like it, and I've never heard anyone here counter any of the positive statements regarding the course.

I'm also interested in understanding the severe criticisms he receives here.  Are these coming from folks with a good sample size of his courses?  I'll be the first to admit that my opinion is only based on one course, so it isn't worth much.  Still, I feel like if I had only played one of his courses and didn't like it, I would focus negative comments on the course rather than the architect.  Several of the comments on this and other threads seem to be the cheap-shot one-liner style.

Did he come to a GCA event and piss some people off?  

Bill Satterfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2006, 02:59:59 PM »
Has anyone here played Ironbridge in Colorado?  Holes 10-13 there are quite impressive although I still can't figure out why AH didn't leave these as the finishing holes.  That course is a steal right now with memberships being sold at $15K and they are dropping monthly dues to under $300.  

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2006, 05:09:18 PM »
Arthur Hills.......a different look. Oitavos, 30 minutes from Lisbon, Portugal.














Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2006, 05:14:35 PM »
Aidan,

But, how's the golf course?

Gorgeous natural beauty as the subject of all those photo's, however. ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2006, 05:16:42 PM »
Wow. Great shots. Does it say something negative about the design if I am more fascinated with the vegetation and terrain than I am with the course? That is a pretty interesting property.

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2006, 05:30:35 PM »
Joe and Dan,

An interesting and valid question. It is something I am always aware of. My job is not to docuement a golf course from tee to green. Whenever you can do so and get a striking image, its a bonus.

My job is to create images that will stop the reader(viewer) long enough to say "what a beutiful environment within which to play golf, I want to go there". That is not always possible when you are standing 150 yards from the green and 50% of the image is taken up by grass.

To make the image interesting you have to move around and use as many elements and objects as possible. Make the visual experience a journey through different layers and visual stimuli as you make your way to the ultimate goal, the flag.

Just my view and I havent even had an Irish whiskey yet. Photographing that way I do not make a politcal statement as to whether the course is good or bad, that is for others to decide.

Aidan.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2006, 05:53:24 PM »
Aiden,
I hope you didn't take my comments as a knock on your pictures. They weren't really even meant to be critical of the course. Instead, I find the surrounding environment to be fascinating and cool and very different from what we see in New England. Glad you captured it the way you did. Adds a uniqe element to the course.

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2006, 06:04:10 PM »
Dan,

Not at all Dan. No worries, I check my ego at the door. One of the first tim's I posted, I had my words rammed down my throat by a regular to this site. I realised then and there that if you post an image or an opinion be prepared for someone who has a contrary opinion. That is what a discussion group should be all about.

In short, no offense was taken and as I illuded to earlier, a good question. Slainte.

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2006, 09:20:30 PM »
I've only played one Hills course, Cross Creek in Temecula, California. I enjoyed the course overall, although there were a couple of goofy holes. I didn't think it was "bad". I do think he could've done better w/ such a great oppurtunity to work on a rare piece of property such as this in Cal. Those types of properties don't come around here very often and I wonder how great it would've been w/ Doak or Coore/Crenshaw at the helm. For that matter, any one of the archs. at this site. I think Hills did miss a chance to silence his critics w/ such a nice piece of property, but I don't think it was awful.

Sounds like a ringing endorsement to me. ;D These Hills threads are just becoming too hard for me to lay off. I can't take it anymore.

Glenn:

To quote Krusty the Klown during a KrustyBurger commercial for the Ribwich as he takes a bite...... "I don't mind the taste!"  ;D



John Moore II

Re: A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2010, 12:18:26 AM »
So, this thread seems the most relevant for now. I played Maryland National today, first Arthur Hills original design I have played. Its difficult to really put into words what I think of this course. Holes 1 through 5 are good to the point that I thought the course had some real potential. Well, exclusive of the routing being all over the place. Then you have to drive forever to get to #6 and once you get there, you see a really terrible looking hole. 6 is a drop shot par 3, over the wetlands/ESA to a green that is completely devoid of any character. The course picks up a little bit, with 7, a good par 5. 8 and 9 are OK holes, nothing special, but nothing bad.
Then you step (after driving over half the distance back up the hole to get to the tee) to the 10th tee. Ummm...how to put this...the hole sucks. 5 iron-PW is how I played it from the back tees. It would not be possible to play much more than a 3 iron off the tee. For a hole to be 335ish yards and have no possibility of reaching the green, over flat land, is just odd to me. At least give guys the chance to take the risk. But in this case, the reward is almost nil compared to the risk. Too short, too long, left or right and you are dead in a hazard. 11 is a fair hole.
12 would be a good, long par 3, 255 yards from the back tee, however, somewhere along the line it was decided to install a drain basin about 10 yards short of the green and in a 4-5 foot deep depression. Basically your ball must land on the green (with a hybrid or longer, mind you) in order to get on the surface. This hole could be good with about 2 dump truck loads of soil brought in and the basin grassed over, allow a run-up shot to reach the green. As is, you either hit in a 5-6 foot wide area to roll the ball on or you wind up in the basin right or in a collection area left.
13 is another good par 5. Then 14, a mirror image of the 6th, more or less, and it sucks just as bad. 15 is a really good short par 5.
16 is in a category of its own. Mike Cirba said something to the effect of it is one of the worst holes on the planet. Those were my exact thoughts while standing on the tee. Its a hole meant to have options, that has no options. The 'fairway' to the right, over the creek is about 10 yards wide, with the creek running the entire length to the right and 'lost ball area' to the right. And the green is bad. Yes, if I had to name the 18 worst holes I've ever played, this would make the list for sure; as would at least one of the par 3's and possibly either 10 or 18.
17 is another drop-shot par 3, almost identical to 7 and 14. You know, I don't always hold it against a course to have similar par 3's, Golden Horseshoe (Gold) has them like that. Only difference is, the similar par 3's are Horseshoe actually play different lengths and with somewhat different strategies. These three at Maryland National play roughly the same yardage, look almost identical, and require basically the same shot.
And the 18th, coming hole. Wedged in between the first fairway and the ESA, the fairway is basically too narrow for the length of the hole as played and the fairway runs out into the junk at about 310 yards. So, let me get this right, on the Home hole, you build a hole that is pretty much without playing options and then, in spite of the fact you have a large piece of land basically right below the clubhouse porch which would make for a much better greensite, you choose to wedge the green between the wetlands/ESA on the right and a manufactured bunker on the left? Terrible, Terrible finishing hole.

So, a little summary. Not a bad course overall, it played nicely firm and fast. The par 5's are all very good, all of them having multiple playing options and fairly interesting greens. The par 3's are very weak overall; #3 is a good hole (some have said it is a Redan, I didn't notice while playing, but looking now, I guess thats the case) 12 would be good with the changes I mentioned (which would less than $2500 IMO, just dig the sod that exists in the area and get 3 loads of sand/soil at most) and, well, the other 3 holes are identical and suck identically. As for the par 4's, the ones on the highlands (1, 4, 5, 11) are all pretty good, 8 and 9 (the 'open lowland' holes) are somewhat indifferent and the 'wooded lowland' holes (10, 16, 18) are horrible. This course starts off very fast and finishes like a Top Fuel Dragster with a blown piston.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A good Art Hills course?
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2010, 10:52:10 AM »
I've played a few Hills courses which I did not care for at all.

However, when I lived in SW Ohio I often played at Weatherwax, a 36-hole facility in Middletown that had to be one of his early designs.  Will not make anyone's top 25 but I enjoyed playing there, it was my regular course.

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