GCA? How Hard Is It?

[Glenn Spencer]

Everybody that has every looked at a hand, has wanted a shot at Doyle Brunson. Everybody that has ever played baseball wanted a shot at a Major League curveball. Every reasonably decent golfer tries the US Open qualifier. Every chess player would like a shot at Bobby Fisher. So, I guess I am asking HOW difficult is it to design a golf course? Could an avid golfer design something that was at all playable or would it instantly be the worst golf course in that country? If there are other difficulty comparisons, I would love to hear them.

[Tom Huckaby]

I have to believe it's a LOT harder than it looks.  Sure all of us can doodle hole diagrams on paper, and some of us yokels might even be able to string together 18 decent holes out on the ground... But what we'd all screw up without a doubt are the things we so rarely talk about on here:  drainage and other infrastructure issues.  

I'd equate it to skating in alone and trying to score on Martin Brodeur.  Looks doable, would be anything but.

[Sean Leary]

I think the routing and the drainage would be the hardest parts.  I think many maybe could design a good to great hole but would never be able to do it over consecutive holes, never mind 18..

EDIT- Now I'm copying Huck's posts too, Glenn, not just yours

[Jeff_Mingay]

My sense is, without any experience at golf course design/construction, most golfers would overlook functional aspects, such as effective surface drainage.

[Glenn Spencer]

I have to believe it's a LOT harder than it looks.  Sure all of us can doodle hole diagrams on paper, and some of us yokels might even be able to string together 18 decent holes out on the ground... But what we'd all screw up without a doubt are the things we so rarely talk about on here:  drainage and other infrastructure issues.  

I'd equate it to skating in alone and trying to score on Martin Brodeur.  Looks doable, would be anything but.

Brodeur. Classic!!! I imagine that falling on your face on the ice relates to designing a reasonable course. The infrastructure and the drainage are some of the reasons that I was asking, would it even be playable. Say that a had a month to learn all they could. Could they make it so that it wasn't the worst course in the country.

[Glenn Spencer]

I think the routing and the drainage would be the hardest parts.  I think many maybe could design a good to great hole but would never be able to do it over consecutive holes, never mind 18..

EDIT- Now I'm copying Huck's posts too, Glenn, not just yours

 

[A.G._Crockett]

I see no reason to believe that GCA is different from any other highly skilled profession.  Very few can do it well, and the rest of us are fortunate to be able to enjoy their work.  As to the ability of the rest of us to do what GCA's do, we might as well try neurosurgery; our success rate would be similar.

[JSlonis]

I definitely think an avid golfer can design a solid, even a GREAT golf course.  On a world class scale, you don't have to look much farther than Pine Valley, Merion & Pebble Beach.  I realize that George Crump had input from some of the very best "experts" of his time, but much of what Mr. Crump created at Pine Valley, he did on his own.  His "amateur" vision of what Pine Valley could become, led to one of the best golf courses in the world.  I realize that each of these courses have been touched by a professional in some way, but I don't think it discounts the fact that these "amateur" architects had the ability to create something very special.

An a smaller more local scale here in NJ, avid amateur golfer Archie Struthers created what many regard as one of the better public courses in NJ at Twisted Dune.

I've played plenty of awful courses over the years, some designed by the so called pro's.  There is no question that a better course could have been designed by an amateur.

It can be done...

[Tom Huckaby]

My son and I just met Brodeur.. we happened to be in downtown San Jose last weekend as the NJ Devils bus pulled up in front of hotel... just dumb luck.  He was very cool.  Anyway that's why this was top of mind.

 

So OK, give us a crash course in drainage for a month.. give us a LOT of money... and it would then still turn on how much we are willing to delegate.  That is, if part of this is inviting your good friend Tom Doak to come and take a looksy and give some pointers, I think we could come up with a decent course.  But if we are to go it truly alone... well... worst course in the country might not result, but we'd be way way way closer to that than to the best.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

My son and I just met Brodeur.. we happened to be in downtown San Jose last weekend as the NJ Devils bus pulled up in front of hotel... just dumb luck.  He was very cool.  Anyway that's why this was top of mind.

 

So OK, give us a crash course in drainage for a month.. give us a LOT of money... and it would then still turn on how much we are willing to delegate.  That is, if part of this is inviting your good friend Tom Doak to come and take a looksy and give some pointers, I think we could come up with a decent course.  But if we are to go it truly alone... well... worst course in the country might not result, but we'd be way way way closer to that than to the best.

TH

Most hockey players seem to be really great guys. I think it has to do with the fact that they are SO dependent on their teammates.IDK. Anyway, no,no,no. Endless money is not a part of this. Same budget as a normal professional would receive.

[Mike_Young]

I guess this brings up a question I often ask myself....
How involved does one have to be to be considered a golf architect...with all the hype we now have and the different architects out there from Trump to writers to professional golfers....
I guess the answer is.... most anyone can do it if they have the right staff...AND I think today the construction companies are so good they can make a lot of people that don't know what they are doing look good.
JMO

[PThomas]

I definitely think there's artistic skill involved in designing a good golf course...which means I would suck at it for sure

[Glenn Spencer]

I definitely think an avid golfer can design a solid, even a GREAT golf course.  On a world class scale, you don't have to look much farther than Pine Valley, Merion & Pebble Beach.  I realize that George Crump had input from some of the very best "experts" of his time, but much of what Mr. Crump created at Pine Valley, he did on his own.  His "amateur" vision of what Pine Valley could become, led to one of the best golf courses in the world.  I realize that each of these courses have been touched by a professional in some way, but I don't think it discounts the fact that these "amateur" architects had the ability to create something very special.

An a smaller more local scale here in NJ, avid amateur golfer Archie Struthers created what many regard as one of the better public courses in NJ at Twisted Dune.

It can be done...

Jamie,

How well do you know the story? Did he do it ALL by himself or what? Interesting, nonetheless. Struthers, I mean.

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn - agreed re hockey players.  They also get the hottest babes... maybe there's a correlation?

 

So OK, no endless money.  Well, that just means the result is that much worse... keeping to a budget is something we'd all suck at also.  Thus something would get shorted... and it would negatively effect the results a lot.

TH

[JSlonis]

Glenn,

I know Archie fairly well.  I believe the "Cliffnotes" to the story go something like this:

I think at first, Archie had a "name" architect(that I won't NAME)that he had contracted to do the project.  After becoming frustrated by this architect due to various reasons, he had had enough.  He then took the project on himself and created what is now know as Twisted Dune.

Archie is an infrequent poster on this site, so maybe he'll chime in with more accurate info.  Regardless of the circumstances that led to him to design the course, he ended up creating something pretty unique and quite good.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jamie - don't you think guys like Crump and Archie are the exception, though?  That is, sure it CAN be done by an amateur... but one wouldn't lose money betting on the course sucking mightily by damn near all others.

No?

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

I know Archie fairly well.  I believe the "Cliffnotes" to the story go something like this:

I think at first, Archie had a "name" architect(that I won't NAME)that he had contracted to do the project.  After becoming frustrated by this architect due to various reasons, he had had enough.  He then took the project on himself and created what is now know as Twisted Dune.

Archie is an infrequent poster on this site, so maybe he'll chime in with more accurate info.  Regardless of the circumstances that led to him to design the course, he ended up creating something pretty unique and quite good.

Thanks, Jamie. I will look it up, but in case I can't find what I am looking for. What is so unique about it? WOW!!! I see what you are talking about. The par 3's look absolutely wonderful. The tee shot on 10 looks good as well. I bet 11 is a fabulous hole with that green. The place looks great.

[Kirk Gill]

So OK, give us a crash course in drainage for a month.. give us a LOT of money... and it would then still turn on how much we are willing to delegate.  That is, if part of this is inviting your good friend Tom Doak to come and take a looksy and give some pointers, I think we could come up with a decent course.  But if we are to go it truly alone... well... worst course in the country might not result, but we'd be way way way closer to that than to the best.

Would it turn on how much you are willing to delegate? Or perhaps might it turn on how dedicated you were willing to be to the project. Would you be willing to live on the course, making the changes that you or others would find necessary? Sure, some innate genius or even innate aptitude would be part of the equation, but given "world enough, and time," couldn't you, Tom Huckaby, be the next George Crump or H.C. Leeds? Think of the risk, though, to spend your life creating a course and after all that lavish attention having it turn out to be crap anyway.

[Brian Phillips]

It is not hard if you love it and dedicate all your time to it.  The hard part is getting paid for it...

[Tom Huckaby]

Kirk:

I feel confident that all the time and effort in the world wouldn't allow me, Tom Huckaby, to create a decent golf course.  Clint has taught me well:  I do know my limitations.

But you do make a very good point:  many could figure this out given enough time.  But to me that equates to endless money also, and I don't think this is part of what Glenn is asking... I think he wants to know how us yokels would do given normal circumstances.

And I feel confident that in that scenario, our courses would suck.

 

[Glenn Spencer]

Kirk:

I feel confident that all the time and effort in the world wouldn't allow me, Tom Huckaby, to create a decent golf course.  Clint has taught me well:  I do know my limitations.

But you do make a very good point:  many could figure this out given enough time.  But to me that equates to endless money also, and I don't think this is part of what Glenn is asking... I think he wants to know how us yokels would do given normal circumstances.

And I feel confident that in that scenario, our courses would suck.

 

TH,

What type of sucky course do you see yourself building that sucks the least? Links, mountain, seaside, what? You are right on about what I wanted to know. If we had endless money and pros at our disposal, I don't think our courses would be too hateful.

[John Foley]

I think we could lay out some pretty neat holes. Put in cool/challenging bunkers, interesting greens w/ even some neet surronds. But putting 18 of them together, making sure the grass grows , the water drains and it all works together, I think it takes ALOT of work & skill to make that all happen.

[Adam Clayman]

I bet most of the guys on here who work in the dirt or have experience with equitment (moving dirt) could do it. However, the rest of us regular folk would be overwhelmed without the right site or tutor.


All you regular folk who see golf holes as you drive by interesting terrain...

What is the inherent flaw in every one of those holes we see?

[Bruce Katona]

Let's make the following assumptions before we debate the difficulty of performing the task:

1. You are motivated enough to dedicate the time to get the project done - those of you in business for yourselves know how much time is spent on the business versus the ancillary things required to allow the business to operate.
2. You can properly finance the project.
3. You are self-motivated and take pride in your work.
4. You have a reasonable piece of property - not too environmentally challanged to impact and make the routing goofy.

If you can comply with the above, your product, even as a first go, will turn out properly.  Pride in authorship and your financial neck on the line will produce a good result.

Just ask Eric Bergstol or Archie Struthers.

[Scott Witter]

Bruce:

Your comments are quite valid and certainly applicable, but let's assume for the moment that those parameters are in place, but more so on the surface...a what if comes to my mind, and I think there are a lot of individuals who are good/great golfers and just as many who are not golfers at all that could do a very good job, but they are doing something else and have likely not ever given it much thought....UNTIL NOW, so thanks Glenn for stepping up the competiton, I was worried that I was about to be overloaded with so much new work!