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ian

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2002, 03:57:13 PM »
None of us, even the Doyens, stick to only architecture. Check your own posting history, you may be suprised.

The golf talk can be as interesting as the architecture. Speaking for myself, I don't come hear for an education, I come here because its enjoyable. And dammit, I usually learn something in the process (that's the bonus).

A little courtesy would fix more problems than a strict agenda of golf architecture.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

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Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2002, 04:19:18 PM »
Well put Ian Andrew.

Cheers,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2002, 04:34:24 PM »
Ted,

The site is what you put into it, and what you extract from it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2002, 08:02:15 PM »
"What can we learn about architecture within this topic"

The model participants for this site have always been Ran and John. You will not find a more well travelled twosome. I don't know any two who have seen as much. I know Ran is a serious golf course rater and I don't know if John is or was, but he would make a hell of a rater. But I guarentee rating status or no rating status, these two would have carried on in their pursuits. Pasion is what drives them. Yet, with all their expertise, they are also the most inquisitive dual I have met. They will express their exceedingly well-read and well-traveled opinions, but they are more likely to ask you to express yours and share what you have discovered. And both are true gentleman, with never an in your face word -- rarely.

This site is full of golf course raters and golf course collecters and well travelled amateurs who are anxious to express their expert opinions (rating). But those opinions pale in comparison to the give and take that the Morrissetts originally created on this site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2002, 07:02:26 AM »
Well said re Ran and John, Tom - though I've never met either, I have spoken to Ran and that was great fun... and their efforts in creating and maintaining this web site are absolutely great fun... now if each would only post here once in awhile!   ;)

BTW, it's interesting to me that as I type this, the Tiger & Ryder Cup thread has 114 responses, the VERY thoughtful and erudite "bunker location" thread has 20.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Melvin

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2002, 07:56:39 AM »
Dave,

FYI, the Tiger post is still here, it has not been deleted.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2002, 08:02:15 AM »
Mike,

Dave SAID it wasn't deleted.  Why are you reiterating it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

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Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2002, 09:07:55 AM »
I know this is long. Too long! Hey, we're busy men here! But please bear with me -- and I'll try not to disappoint you. (Thank you.)

I speak from experience here (for once) -- as a person who created (and still edits, 12 years later) a 365-days-a-year newspaper column written primarily by its readers (most of them known by name to me, but anonymous to the other readers).

My column (if you don't mind my calling it mine) is not unlike this Discussion Group, except for two things: (1) The discussion is very, very rarely about golf (and even more rarely about Golf Course Architecture); and (2) I edit it; I decide what gets into the column and what does not -- and what does not get into print goes, sooner or later, to the wastebasket, unread except by me. (Oops. Make that three things. Tom Paul has not written even one item for me!) (Or four: Neither has Pat Mucci.) (Five! I don't allow the readers to get nasty with one another. [The commands "Get a life" and "Lighten up" are Officially Verboten.])

This is the most valuable thing I have to say about the subject under discussion in this thread -- and you can decide, individually, if it's at all valuable, or quite worthless (and now that I think about it, this just MAY have some application to Golf Course Architecture  ;D -- though, of course, you may disagree, and as nastily as you like!):

Sometimes the thing you create changes into something very different from the thing you had in mind when you created it.

And sometimes that change, as Martha (Stewart, not Burk) would say, is a Good Thing.

Witness my column: What I had in mind was entertainment. Nothing more, and nothing less. The column was to be a diversion from all of the serious (and, often, seriously depressing) news in the rest of the paper. It was to be FUNNY -- goofily funny, or bitingly funny, or darkly funny, but FUNNY first, last and always.

And so it went for the first couple of years. People submitted their (allegedly) hilarious or wry or sly or silly observations, and I printed them -- sometimes with comment, sometimes without.

And then, strangely and without provocation, the readers started telling me not just stuff designed to make people laugh, but SERIOUS stories about their lives -- about their marriages, and their parents, and their children, and their jobs, and their hobbies, and their passions ... about Life, and about Death, in all of its manifestations (politics excluded; politicians, amateur or professional, are not, and never have been, and never will be welcome to pollute my column). Sometimes it was tragic, heartbreaking stuff they sent me; sometimes it was sentimental; sometimes it was curious; sometimes it was gentle; sometimes it was contemptuous; sometimes it was angry. But whatever its mood, it was real, honest-to-goodness stuff from real, honest-to-goodness Midwesterners -- many of them the sort of people who, without a trace of irony or self-consciousness, use expressions like "honest-to-goodness." They really do!

When those softer-edged stories started arriving, I'll never forget thinking: But THAT'S not what I had in mind! I wanted something biting and witty and sharp. I wanted a smart-aleck's paradise. Some of this gooey stuff sounded like what you could read in some little weekly in some backwater hick-town!

And then I got smart. I listened to what the readers wanted to say. And I let them say it, in print -- the result being, all these years later, that what had been (and had been meant to be) nothing more than a trifle, ever, became, for me and for many of the readers, a very rich, profoundly educational mix of stories about Life As We Know It, about the human condition from the ridiculous to the sublime. (I don't know how to say that without sounding horribly pretentious. Sorry. If I do say so myself: It's an extraordinary column, primarily because of its extraordinary contributors; all I need to do is pay attention and choose well.)

My point, after all that, is: Same goes for GolfClubAtlas! I believe that gca.com has hugely benefitted (and will continue to benefit) from (1) the contributions of many posters (including, just coincidentally, me  8) ) who have not yet played many of the World's Great Courses, and who have no proven or proveable expertise in Golf Course Architecture; and (2) golfish discussions that have little or nothing to do with Golf Course Architecture, narrowly defined.

Check my signature quotation, below, from Mr. TE ("Tom I") Paul. What he says goes for me.

I came here because I love golf (more than is good for me), and because, though I love to play the game and to watch the game being played, I care particularly intensely about the courses where the game is played. Some of the very best days of my life have been spent on golf courses -- most memorably at Sand Hills, Highlands Links, Pebble Beach, Lahinch, North Berwick, the Old Course at St. Andrews, but also at Little Traverse Bay in Northern Michigan, and at Black Butte Ranch in Oregon, and at Kebo Valley in Maine, and at Lawsonia in Wisconsin, and at Hazeltine and Woodhill and North Oaks and Somerset and Northland and Giants Ridge here in Minnesota, and even at the humble but intermittenly lovable Oak Glen, where Rick Shefchik and I keep our cards, and where, later this month, we will play, as we always do, an end-of-the-season, dawn-to-dusk, 72-hole marathon (yes, with carts); those were some of the very best days of my life not because of the company (though that's part of it), and not because of the golf itself (though that's part of it), and not at all because of how well I played that golf (I shudder to think of how poorly I played Sand Hills the one chance I got!), but because when the weather is nice and the wind is blowing and the sun is rising or setting, those PLACES THEMSELVES (including, but not limited to, the golf holes) can be transcendent. They can take me where I want to be -- to a state of contentment I have rarely experienced in the rest of what passes for life.

I want more of that! And that's why I came here: to learn where others had found such transcendence, and where I might someday look for it.

I came here after I stumbled upon a newspaper story (Philly Inquirer, I think) about the new bunkers at Merion ... a story that happened to mention that a bunch of nut-cases at www.golfclubatlas.com were arguing about it at insane length -- and I stayed here because, after I checked out that discussion and read a couple of hundred posts about the (alleged) desecration of the old White Faces, and after I checked out a few dozen other threads and a few course profiles and a couple of "My Home Courses"s and an "In My Opinion" or two, I felt as though (even though I'd never played Merion, or NGLA, or Pine Valley, or Cypress Point, and maybe never will) I'd finally found ... MY NUT-CASES!

You know who you are!

What is here at this Web site today, and what will be here tomorrow, may not be precisely what the Morrissetts had in mind. But to my mind -- and, I hope, to theirs -- that is at least potentially a Good Thing.

Here's my vote:

The more, the better.

The more wide-ranging, the better.

The more civil, the better.

The more welcoming, the better.

The more flexible, the better.

The more educational, the better.

The more tolerant of the friendly, entertainingly non-educational, the better.

Oh, and one more thing:

The more concise, the better.  :P





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2002, 09:54:27 AM »
Dan,
That is a beautiful and evocative piece of writing.  Thank you for summing up how many of us feel about golf and this website.
Where can I read your column?  I'm the son of a newspaper man and love good writing as much as I love golf.
Wow...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2002, 10:03:41 AM »
A.G._Crockett --

Thank you.

You'll find links to today's column (and the past week's) at http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/living/people/.

How's that for concise?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2002, 10:54:42 AM »
I've always been a sucker for the written word. I can't write a lick, but I could read others works all day long. English was always my worst subject (My Dad, a 35 year High School English teacher would shudder at that thought). When I see these tremendous posts like Dan Kelly's above, I feel blessed that I get to participate.

When guys like Dan, Tom MacWood, Rich, Tommy (and so many others) who have the gift of putting their thoughts, comments or idea's down in cyberspace, I get to share their pasion.

Everyone of us would love to be playing right now. W/ the million commitments we all juggle, this incredible space gives us solace and a connection to that pasion.

That's why I'm glad to be here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Integrity in the moment of choice

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2002, 08:39:29 PM »
I never thought Tom MacWood would come between Rich and me!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2002, 09:25:04 PM »
Dan
A wonderful commentary.  You stated very eloquently why I check this site with my coffee every morning.  I look for the diferent perspectives of Huck and Rich, who have enjoyed the pleasure of playing with. But Tommy and Tom Paul and Pat and Dan  and.... are teachers I have never met.  I enjoy the wide ranging topics because golf at its best is a living metaphor for life.  the things that the game has taught me about myself and life in general are here for me every dayand always with unique view points that make me look at things from the Philly view or the Long Island or Midwest. So I say to all write on!
Cheers
Stan Dodd
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2002, 10:06:30 PM »
Dan;

In my best, stodgy British inflection..."Good show, old man!"

You know, in thinking about it, my major complaint with the site these days is that my schedule has become somewhat constricted and I'm finding it impossible to keep up.

Inevitably, that says more about my life than anything negative about this site, and I'm learning to recognize that the symptoms I'm suffering are not part of some general disease.

Frankly, I'm about full expression and varied opinions, and I'd hate for anyone to read anything I might write and feel deterred from posting their own thoughts as a result.

I just wish I didn't feel like I'm chasing a train that has long since left the station...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

quest

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2002, 02:35:05 PM »
Getagameatagreatprivateclub.com
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2002, 02:46:49 PM »
or more popularly known as......

GolfClubAccess.com

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
#nowhitebelt

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2002, 03:27:03 PM »
Dan Kelly:

No one could have put it any better.  Great post and a great explanation of what GCA has come to mean to so many people. :)

If some of the discussion is changed somewhat that's ok.  It is about golf and IMHO everything about Golf ultimately revolves around the architecture.

Long live Ran (GMB) and the GCA.

Dan Kelly keep on writing.

Fairways and Greens,

Dave  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2002, 03:39:41 PM »
Let me add this to Dan's 200-yard hole-out:

We all come here because we we have a common interest in golf course architecture. If some of us veer off track now and then, at least we agree what the site's main purpose is.

Like Dan, I believe a little general conversation between afficionados of golf course architecture does nothing but deepen our understanding of each other and where we're coming from.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2002, 04:40:13 PM »
Dan,
a fine and excellent piece of writing, and yes, I do think that a lot of this about all of us, as a discussion group, and that more then anything, is why there might be a disturbance or two. Call it growing pains if you will. Even call it family squabbles.

Yes, there are those that don't understand what golf architecture is all about, just as much of those of us that take it to the point of religious jihad. But in all of that comes the passion, and I can more then respect anyone with that knowledge to go with that belief--that they will go to the matresses for what they believe.

Its unfortunate that sometimes there has to be a negative slant about certain things or certain people here, but from me, (I can't speak for the others) I hate the fact that modernism has to affect classicism (It should be the other way around.) and anyone thinking that it can work is just plainly not well read on the subject, therfore should at least make an effort to read and interpret it. I hate the fact that there are some that think that they know so much, and thus, have noting more to learn because they already know it and are ready to argue about it just so they can play the advocate.

In truth Golf Architecture is the one thing in my personal life where I find contentment (besides praying:)) and some of us who really spend the time reading and researching and learning and looking, knowing that there will never be a finalization, but more of an enlightenment and most of all inspriation of from which to build knowledge on, further.

-Bunkers are in fact hazards, and thereforth shouldn't look like the surrounds of a parking median.

-The flair of that hillside should flow into the fairway and dissapate subtlely, not abruptly. Nor should a cart path dictate that line off of the hillside.

-That the imperfection is the perfection.

-If the client(s) wanted it, then maybe there is a hope to further school the client(s) on why it isn't in tune with the what Golf should really be about. Lets see these marketing whiz's market that! (Not you Josh!)

So much to learn. So very much to learn.

Thankfully we have some pretty special people here to teach it to us.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2002, 07:46:29 AM »
Dan Kelly (tm):

That's a great post and I hope it has a real influence on Golfclubatlas!

The supreme irony of that post, at least to me, though, was the last line; "The more concise the better."

You said that despite the fact that your post clearly outworded anything I've ever written--and I've never been known to be concise or for my brevity--that's for sure!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2002, 10:58:00 AM »
Thank you, gentlemen.

Tom I --

Supreme irony fully intended. Seems maybe you didn't grasp that?
   Not your fault, I'm sure. I'm really not very good at self-mockery.
   Haven't had much practice, after all!  ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2010, 10:16:53 PM »
Jeff Fortson's "new topic" asking if CGA had jumped the shark got me to reading some old threads to see if this website really was better in the good old days. (My answer is NO, it reads just about the same!)

But low and behold I find this 8 year old thread, including Jeff's lame compaint in 2002 !!! that the site is abused by access whores... Have you really been posting the same crap about CGA.com for 8 years Jeff?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 10:20:18 PM by Bill Brightly »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2010, 10:19:14 PM »
Nice pull, Bill.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2010, 10:38:40 PM »
Jeff Fortson's "new topic" asking if CGA had jumped the shark got me to reading some old threads to see if this website really was better in the good old days. (My answer is NO, it reads just about the same!)

But low and behold I find this 8 year old thread, including Jeff's lame compaint in 2002 !!! that the site is abused by access whores... Have you really been posting the same crap about CGA.com for 8 years Jeff?

Bill,

The access whoring did start a long time ago.  Now we see how voices of concern like mine went on deaf ears and now gca.com has turned into the Match.com for golfing whores.  Sure, some good posters still sprinkle in the good threads, but come on.  If you think my point, that this site has gone from being about course architecture to accessing golf courses through members on here is "lame", I am ok with that.  If you think this thread you brought back is a good example of what it was like on here years ago, you are mistaken.  It's a nice attempt at spin, but this I'm not ok with.  I have never claimed to be one of the influential posters or some mystical authority on gca from long ago, but there are many people I enjoyed reading that left.  The likes of which you couldn't hope to replace.  

Now, I ask you... what do you do for a living?  Just imagine receiving multiple calls/emails/etc. a week asking you for free services?  99% of which came from a website that you once enjoyed being a part of.  Would that upset you?  Would that drive you away from the site?  It did me for much of the last few years.  It did to the likes of Gib Papazian, Tommy Naccarato, Rich Goodale, Jeff Stettner, Dan King, and the list goes on and on.  Some of those guys still lurk and post occasionally, but it just isn't the same.  Now it is infiltrated by the likes of people one-upping each other with what courses they have shagged.  If you can't see that, then I really could care less what you think of my "lame" observations.

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 11:00:53 PM by Jeff Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What this site is....and what this site isn't
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2010, 11:15:58 PM »
Jeff,
 
I also like the "old GCA guys". I got to meet and play golf with Gib P. in Bandon this year. He is a blast and I'm sure his posts were great. I know he lurks but I find it impossible to believe that he no longer posts because he does not know how to say no to an access whore! That is not the guy I met...

I never really buy stories about "the good old days" because such tales invariably involve a heavy dose of selective memory.  People remember the good and forget the bad, it is human nature. I spent two hours reading ten-year-old threads. Some were good, MANY were lame. There were many threads complaining about how far the ball travels today, calls for a rollback on the ball and equipment, etc. People complained about the scores pros were shooting on great courses, etc...all stuff we talk about today. In no way were the old discussions "architectually pure." In no way are there less good architecture discussions today. And today's posts often include GREAT photos of golf courses that many of us will never get to play. There were no such photos in the old threads I read,  so GCA.com is FAR better in that respect now.

What IS different is that the site is no longer brand new, and like your first true love, some things cannot be duplicated...So instead of complaining, start making some good posts relating to architecture. I really don't know your occupation and what happened with acess requests.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 11:24:31 PM by Bill Brightly »