Raynor in Vermont

[T_MacWood]

In Macdonald's obituary it says that he (or he & Raynor) designed a golf course in the Green Mts. Any idea if this course exists?

[Brad Tufts]

A good question....Vermont has participated in all of golf's 120-125 year history in America, as Dorset Field Club claims to be one of the country's oldest courses.  I believe their date of incorporation has been reported as 1886 (one 9 built in 1886, one 9 built in 1999!).

The state has a well known Travis history in Manchester with Ekwanok and Equinox.

There was also at least one Tillinghast course, called Marble Island, although it was much modified, and was sold off for housing within the last 5 years.

Ross made revisions to Woodstock CC, and designed Burlington CC.

I know I'm not directly answering the question, but with the long golf history and propensity for great architects of the period to visit Vermont, it would not surprise to see Mac/Raynor visiting the state.  Ekwanok especially was (and is) an old-money club that must have had several well-connected members who were backing the construction of golf courses in the first quarter of the 20th century.

A probable connection is Raynor's relationship with Ralph Barton (initially a professor at Dartmouth), or perhaps a competition/connection with Travis?

There is at least one abandoned course on the west shoulder of route 30 between Middlebury and Manchester.  It was a 9-holer (I think) with a small shack as a clubhouse/pro shop (still standing, but leaning) and the course features are easily distinguishable in the farmland.  When driving by in the late afternoon through the valley, with the gentle sloping former course laid out in front of you down to a creek at the bottom of the property....it's easy to dream of buying the land and mowing the grass once again...

I can't say I know of a course that exists today that could be a Mac/Raynor, but Vermont is certainly under-developed enough that it still may remain in a field somewhere.

EDIT:  After giving it more thought, I seem to remember reading someplace that Seth Raynor was the original designer of Burlington CC.  I remember thinking it unique that a course was worked on by both he and Ross, albeit at different times.  I think the only reference I've seen to that effect was in Bob Labbance's Vermont Golf Courses book, circa 1990.  The BCC website gives 1924 for the course's construction, whereas the DRS list says "new course" built in 1930.  

I've played BCC earlier this year, and can't speak to Mac/Raynor features beyond a nice reverse redan at #3.  The layout was pretty good, although seemed like it had been "Cornished" or "Hurdzaned" in recent years.

[michael j fay]

One of the most endearing of the older courses in Vermont is the Stiles/Van Kleek course at Rutland Country Club.

Burlington CC has been altered at least twice, the most recent a Hurdzen renovation. The members in charge of Burlington were bound and determined to alter the course and succeeded. Before the renovation the course was about 75% Ross. I have not seen it post renovation.

[Brad Tufts]

Michael,

Rutland is no doubt (one of, if not) my favorite course in VT as well.  I have a good friend who has worked in the shop there for a few years, and he's been nice enough to host me for a golf-intensive weekend or two.  It's a short course with great greens, with pretty holes that cannot be overpowered.

As for Burlington, I saw it on this year's aforementioned weekend, and it did not blow me away like I had hoped.  It was nice and fair, if not slightly benign.  There are about 9 holes there in what amounts to former farm fields with small pines lining the fairways that don't offer the punch the more tree-lined holes do.  Highlights include a couple Ross-inspired fall-away greens, and four solid par threes.  It did feel like they had wrung all the quirk out of it.  The bunkers were not so much Ross grass-faced hazards (or at least what today has become Ross-styled in restoration parlance) as "cloud-shaped," RTJ bunkers.  It's too bad also that the style made the pond between holes 4, 12, and 14 seem more Florida than classic.

After seeing BCC, I'd say there are 5 or 6 courses in VT I'd rather play.

Was the course truly a Ross layout from scratch, or was there any Raynor connection?

In Tom's quote from the obituary, there is mention of "Green Mountains," which is not exactly how I'd describe the Burlington area (Champlain Valley?).  Perhaps they were talking of somewhere else....

[michael j fay]

As far as I know Burlington was designed from scratch by Ross.

Although the character that Ross put into the course was somewhat depleted by the time I saw it, there was no Raynor features that I remember.

[TEPaul]

Tom Macwood:

Perhaps you should give serious consideration to the fact that at practically every print entity an obituary writer is about as low on the food chain as is possible to get. I realize you believe everything you read but I thought I'd just remind you anyway.  

[T_MacWood]

TE
Thanks.

Actually when I'm researching an architectural figure - for an essay or whatever - I try to find an obit or obits (as many as possible). Some of the best information I have found are in obits. For example in MacKenzie's obit in the Santa Cruz paper it mentioned he just completed a book entitled 'The Spirit of St. Andrews'....from that point I was on quest to find what happened to that book.

Some of the best obits were written by Darwin, he usually didn't pull his punches once the man was dead. Another obit gave me virtually all I know of Howard Toomey. Tom Simpson's famous obit while he was living. I love obits....as long as they aren't my own.

[TEPaul]

I'm glad you like obituaries so much, but that does not scotch the fact that obituary writers are at the bottom of the food chain. For instance, isn't it too bad the obituary writers in Jan. 1918 didn't just go ahead and petition for Crump's death certificate? That would've changed some obituaries, don't you think? I guess they either weren't very diligent or perhaps even the obit writers back then understood that some things might be well enough just left alone.

[Phil McDade]

TEPaul:

Which daily newspapers have you worked on?

As someone who once did, and knows a bit about the industry, I'd suggest some obit writers are on the bottom of the food chain, but many are not. In Madison, WI, the morning daily assigns many of its major obits to one of its most senior and best writers, because he's old and knows alot about old dead folks, and the young whipper-snappers that make up the rest of the staff go, "Who died?"

At the NYTimes and other major dailies, most "beat" writers are assigned to write obits of major figures they cover ahead of time. Go back to through the pages of the NYTimes or Washington Post and read some major obits -- some of them are great pieces of journalism. The NYTimes obit on Iphogene Sulzberger, wife of the long-ago publisher, who lived 'til she was 97 or something, was a work of art. I still remember a line in it -- about how the striking printers, during a real knock-down labor battle w/ the Times, would part their picket lines and not say a word when Mrs. Sulzberger visited her husband at the office.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tom,

My experience with obituaries has been mixed at best. I've been doing research on A.E. Fenn for a private organization and his obits - including one from his hometown Waterbury (Conn.) Republican and the Boston Globe - only lists 2 courses that he designed (Poland Springs (Maine and a course in Waterbury that no longer exists), while Archdefects of Golf lists 8 designs and two renovations (one is Palm Beach Golf Club mentioned in the obit). I've was told that CC of Farmington now claims to be an original Fenn design although I have been unable to find that anywhere.

The obits for Thomas Suffern Tailer says he died after Christmas dinner. Family members told me he died at Christmas dinner.

I have to admit the obit for Geoff Childs was accurate. Oh wait, he's still alive. My bad.

Anthony

[wsmorrison]

Tom MacWood,

What information did you find on Howard Toomey?  I haven't been able to find any such documentation.  He remains a mystery man to us.  Please share if you are willing.
WSM

[Brad Tufts]

Anthony,

Do you have any evidence of MacDonald or Raynor working in Vermont?

....Before this thread diverges in two directions, neither of which is, in fact, Raynor in Vermont....

-Brad

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Brad,

I've never  heard it mentioned. Raynor really didn't get too far into the Northeast outside of  his revamp of Dedham Hunt and Polo Club, which is  south of Boston. The entire Macdonald School did very little work up there; that's why I was surprised when it was discovered Emmet worked in Dudley, Mass.

Anthony

[SPDB]

Tom M.

Is it possible that it was a mistaken geographical reference to The Thousand Islands Club? While not quite the Northeast Kingdom, it is in the Northeast.

TEPaul,
Count me among those who disagree with your contention that obit writers are at the bottom of the food chain. Obits are often the best writing you will find in a newspaper.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
Count me among those who disagree with your contention that obit writers are at the bottom of the food chain. Obits are often the best writing you will find in a newspaper."

SPDB:

It's interesting how people interpret things. Where did I say obit writers were not good writers?  

Interesting, a fellow who has a house in the Thousand Islands just mentioned to me today that whoever owns that Raynor course there might be looking to fix it up---eg perhaps restore it somehow.

[TEPaul]

"The obits for Thomas Suffern Tailer says he died after Christmas dinner. Family members told me he died at Christmas dinner."

Anthony:

Well, whether Tommy Tailer died at Christmas dinner or after Christmas dinner I can probably predict what contributed to his death.

Whoa, that man could drink! But you should've seen his friend James Knott. Those guys were pros in the imbibing dept. My Dad got very fascinated at one point by how much Knott drank so he decided to count how much he drank every day and it came out to 35 drinks of one kind or another from morning to bedtime. He was so amazed he told knott he counted exactly how many drinks he had and Knott said; "That's right, 35 every day, no more and no less."

Those guys were real pros in the imbibing dept. They hung out at NGLA a lot. I'm not sure what Knott did to himself but all the years I knew him he spoke with the Goddamnedest most incredible growl I've ever heard in my life. Obviously his vocal chords were totally shot for some reason.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tom,

You are confusing senior with junior. The elder died at dinner, the younger lived into his 70s and was a fine looking man until the day he died. The stories about him and his drinking are never ending. Junior was also quite the golfer playing in three consecutive Masters as an amateur and making the cut in all. He also qualified for the U.S. Amateur matchplay at 16 if my memory serves me.

Anthony

[Ian Andrew]

Tom P,

Interesting, a fellow who has a house in the Thousand Islands just mentioned to me today that whoever owns that Raynor course there might be looking to fix it up---eg perhaps restore it somehow.

Interestingly I talked to the owner this summer about restoration of the course. There is some information there, but not quite what you would hope for. The course is quite facinating with the amount of wild rolls in the open lands, the quirky sunken greens and the amount of blindness; but it is not what people would expect from the "typical" Raynor course.

[T_MacWood]

SPDB
Its possible they were confused...that was my first thought, but then after checking a map I thought maybe not. They aren't exactly in the same neighborhood. The obit was in the NY Times and was very well written. HJ Whigham was quoted within, I suspect he may have helped with some info, although they probably didn't need much help, Macdonald being such a large figure. Speaking of Whigham, his obit is interesting too. He was a journalist; long time editor of Town & Country.

Anthony
You're right about how helpful they can be. Simpson's real obit was one sentence: 'No flowers, no letters, no mourning.' I don't necessarily look for design attribution (although its nice when its included), but more personal background info. A lot depends on who the person was, how well known or important, and where the obit is published.

Wayne
I sent you the short article from Golfdom a couple of years ago. Actually I sent it to TE, he lost it or misplaced it, and then I sent it to you. I'll send it again if you wish.

[Willie_Dow]

Tom:

My guess would be the nine hole course at Dartmouth College, which is now part of Ron Pritchard's redo of the Hanover Golf Club.

Ralph Martin Barton (1875-1941)

[Dan_Callahan]

The Dartmouth course is in New Hampshire, although it is only about a Tiger Woods 5-iron from the Vermont border.

[Willie_Dow]

Thanks Dan - now I can take the "t" out of Pritchard !

[Brad Tufts]

I think it would be relatively well-documented if Mac/Raynor assisted Barton in the extra 9 at Hanover.

The club seems to keep a good historical perspective, considering several of the hole still exist, and I believe this was Barton's first project, an experimentation of sorts.

[Mike_Sweeney]

http://www.brattleborogolf.com/course.htm

Curious if anyone is familiar with Brattleboro. It looks interesting.

[T_MacWood]

The obit mentions that Macdonald's design services were in great demand and that he rarely turned down a project although Raynor was the person normally involved. If there is anything in Vermont, I would think it would have to be Raynor (or maybe Barton)...the relatively small number of courses Macdonald designed is well documented.