[wsmorrison]

I was right down the middle, but my friend and host hooked his tee shot into the 9th fairway.  He made an easy (relatively) par from there.  That is the best angle of approach as it is into the right to left slope of the green.  I'd rather be long way left than long straight on this hole.  I guess there will be grandstands to prevent this during the Open or, heaven forbid, internal OB.

[George Pazin]

Mark Fine:  Oakmont was in fact rated on the Doak scale ten years ago, and it was "only" a 9.  And I also have to agree with Chris Clouser, that the first at Crystal Downs is a tougher hole than the first at Oakmont.

George P:  You have to drive it in the fairway to take this approach, but why doesn't everyone just make sure they fly their approach onto the green and let it run to the back and try to chip and putt UP the hill for par?  That's generally the way to attack any hole with a fallaway green, and it amazes me how few golfers ever figure it out.  Leaving yourself short of that green is impossibly touchy.  You are going to be behind the hole at some point before you hole out, it might as well be after your second shot instead of after your third.

Chris -

So now tougher is better?

Tom -

That's pretty much how Hogan purportedly played the 10th. The story goes he was hitting practice approach shots to the back of the green and, when questioned why, he said, you're gonna be there anyway, might as well be on the second shot as opposed to the third.

I'd guess the reason why this tactic doesn't receive more consideration is that very few golfers are disciplined enough to virtually abandon all hope of birdie.

It's a wonderful example of that little thing called temptation, yet another reason to praise the hole.

Sometimes simple works well.

[JESII]

Wayne,

Don't you think the guys in the Open will feel confident they could hit the green from where you drove it?

[Jim Franklin]

Most of my friends at Oakmont (all pretty solid players) all tell me the way to play #1 is to hit it long and chip back up the slope. With that said, the first time I played it, I hit my drive in the bunkers left, chipped back to the fairway short, and then chunked my chip to the green and watched the ball to within 6 inches of the cup for a magical par .

As to which is more difficult, #1 Oakmont vs #1 Crystal Downs, I am going with Oakmont even though CD kicked my arse. The blind element to Oakmont along with their rough make that hole a brute. CD certainly has the rough, but everything is right in front of you and the green isn't nearly as tough.

I also give the nod to Oakmont versus Prestwick. Prestwick was a 5 iron wedge one putt birdie when I played there my one and only time. While it is intimidating on the tee with the people, no warm up, lousy food, and train, it is only a 5 iron for crying out loud.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
Not even the pros (maybe a handful) will be hitting it 370 yards on #1 (sorry).  They don't even average that distance on the downhill downwind 18th hole at The Plantation Course.  If you give them a 330 yard "average" on #1 at Oakmont (this is very generous as few will stand on this tee and bomb a driver as they know what happens if the miss the fairway), that would still leave them in the 150 yard range.  From there the pros (not amateurs) will hit the green 70% of the time at best.  Average score on the hole will be close to 4.5 during the Open.  

Wayne,
There is no easy par on #1 and especially not from the 9th fairway    You would not dream of trying to hit it over there to come into that green.  I can't even think where you would aim and if you missed the 9th fairway, then what do you do?  Pray  

[Kyle Harris]

My question for Wayne and all the other people who know.

Is there an option for a low, running shot into the green? Why go gung-ho on a full LW and risk the pull and all the bounce/wind moving the ball away from the target when a controlled chip may do the same?

Just throwing it out there, the closest I've come to seeing this hole while coherent (We lived down the road [11th St and Pennsylvania] in 1983 and I was at that Open at 2 months old) was driving down Hulton Road in 2004.

[JESII]

Mark,

It looks like you might be suggesting Wayno here is about 40 yards longer than the "average" US Open player.

Have you seen this?

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/leaders/r/2006/159

Can't figure out where any of the drives took place, but I can tell you, if that fairway is firm and they hit driver, those in the fairway will average a hell of alot more than 330 yards.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
It is scary how far they hit it.  However, #1 at Oakmont will NOT average as long as I suggested in my example.  There is way too much trouble to stand on the 1st tee and flat out rip it.  These guys are too smart as they know if they miss that first fairway, it brings all kinds of numbers into play.  They just can't afford to take the chance and derail their round right out of the gate with a big number.  And even if some do manage to hit it to wedge range (few will), it will still be a very tough target to get the ball on the green let alone close.  

I don't know if you played the hole but after you have done so a few times you realize just what you are facing.  

Remember this thread once the tournament starts.  You birdie this hole and you pick up almost 2 strokes on the field.
You can rib me if I'm wrong  

[JESII]

Mark,

What do you think these guys will be hitting from 150? With anything other than a decent wind in there face 75% or more will be hitting wedge because of the nature of the green.

Do you think Wayne flew his ball 370 yards? Of course not. I would bet his ball rolled 100 yards. I've played with Wayne, and yes he hts the ball a long way, and 270 in the air is a long way. Regardless, the hole is an extremely difficult hole. Are you suggesting a decent percentage of people will hit long irons and fairway woods off the tee?

[George Pazin]

My question for Wayne and all the other people who know.

Is there an option for a low, running shot into the green? Why go gung-ho on a full LW and risk the pull and all the bounce/wind moving the ball away from the target when a controlled chip may do the same?

Can't believe you can't remember a hole you saw when you were 2 months old. Must have had Iron City in the bottle.

Anyway, the option is certainly there, though, due to the abundant firmness and speed, one would have to land it well short of where they would normally land a low runner, and this would be difficult to do without a good bit of practice.

-----

When Tom P indicates his average drive on the hole was in the neighborhood of 300, I'd be surprised if the big boys didn't average 330, even hitting 3 woods.

Not that it will make a difference.

 

[TEPaul]

"...... but my friend and host hooked his tee shot into the 9th fairway.  He made an easy (relatively) par from there.  That is the best angle of approach as it is into the right to left slope of the green."

Wayne:

It occured to me a couple of years ago when I heard Oakmont was planning on removing all the interior trees on the course that there would be a number of parallel fairways from which these pros could approach the green of the hole they're on.

The first one I thought of was 10 and 11 but obviously 1 and 9 is somewhat the same and I think 3 and 4 too going left of the church pews into #4 fairway. This may become an issue in the Open for the simple reason that if they miss the fairway by a little they're going to be in Open rough or tough bunkers but if they miss 1, 3, 10 by a lot left they will probably be in a parallel fairway. I think they're going to start the fairway on 11 way out so balls coming off 10 into that hole will be in rough but on #1 and #3 they'll be in parallel fairways if they go way left off those tees.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
Yes I think a lot of guys will hit something less than driver.  It will of course depend on the conditions at the time.  Probably not a player in the field who would not take 150 yards into that green each day from the fairway if offered.  That will be anything from a wedge to a knock down short iron.

Tom,
Don't forget the ditches?  You will have to miss it like Phil did on #18 at Winged Foot to be in the clear on some of those holes.  No one will be playing to other fairways on purpose.

[Ryan Farrow]

I think they're going to start the fairway on 11 way out so balls coming off 10 into that hole will be in rough but on #1 and #3 they'll be in parallel fairways if they go way left off those tees.

What do you mean by way out? I  don't imagine many drives ending up near #11 but I could see the pros playing the drive on 11 to #10. Not only does it give them a better angle but they eliminate a difficult drive and take the ditch to the right of 11 out of play.

[ForkaB]

For those who have played the hole, isn't hitting long and chipping back up the green a good strategy?  It is on most of the fallaway greens that I have played.

[Tom Huckaby]

For those who have played the hole, isn't hitting long and chipping back up the green a good strategy?  It is on most of the fallaway greens that I have played.

Rich - see response #98 - Tom Doak posited the exact same thing.

[Jim Franklin]

Most of my friends at Oakmont (all pretty solid players) all tell me the way to play #1 is to hit it long and chip back up the slope. With that said, the first time I played it, I hit my drive in the bunkers left, chipped back to the fairway short, and then chunked my chip to the green and watched the ball to within 6 inches of the cup for a magical par .

As to which is more difficult, #1 Oakmont vs #1 Crystal Downs, I am going with Oakmont even though CD kicked my arse. The blind element to Oakmont along with their rough make that hole a brute. CD certainly has the rough, but everything is right in front of you and the green isn't nearly as tough.

I also give the nod to Oakmont versus Prestwick. Prestwick was a 5 iron wedge one putt birdie when I played there my one and only time. While it is intimidating on the tee with the people, no warm up, lousy food, and train, it is only a 5 iron for crying out loud.

I said the same thing yesterday. The better players at the club play long and chip back.

[ForkaB]

Sorry guys.  I don't read 100+ post threads in any depth, but it's good to see that great minds think alike!

[JohnV]

For those who have played the hole, isn't hitting long and chipping back up the green a good strategy?  It is on most of the fallaway greens that I have played.

Rich - see response #98 - Tom Doak posited the exact same thing.

A friend who officiated at the 94 US Open said that the day before the Open, Vijay was back left on #10 practicing chips to every possible hole location.  He knew that he would end up there regardless of how he tried to play the hole.  The same with #1 and back right on #12.

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

You are wrong about the angle of approach from the ninth fairway.  I didn't say it was an easy par, I said relatively easier par.  Try it, I doubt you have but I witnessed it and my host explained that it is an easier approach.

I did not bomb the ball in the air so far.  There was a slight tailwind and the ground was very firm.  As Jim stated, I probably carried it about 280 or so and it rolled about 90 yards.  If the pros play it under similar conditions, they will hit it farther than I did.

Jim,

Yes, I think the pros will hit the correct portion of the green with a lofted iron.  As you well know, I suck and did not hold the green.  The chip from the left was very difficult to the back left pin.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I was just watching an episode of M*A*S*H fromt he first season where Hawkeye takes Henry Blake to play out behind the base. The first hole is a par-26. According to Hawkeye, "the mine fields on the left are out of bounds and the Chinese Communists on the right are out of bounds."


Anthony

[David Stamm]

I was just watching an episode of M*A*S*H fromt he first season where Hawkeye takes Henry Blake to play out behind the base. The first hole is a par-26. According to Hawkeye, "the mine fields on the left are out of bounds and the Chinese Communists on the right are out of bounds."


Anthony

And the best flags I've ever seen on a course!

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

David,

You are correct. No problem picking out and concentrating on that target.

Anthony

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
One can't even get up and down from the left side with a short chip shot from just off the green let alone with an approach shot.  Are you suggesting that members play down the 9th fairway to approach the #1 green?  I don't think so.  Furthermore, the pros will not be hitting it 370 yards on hole #1 during the Open.  It is not that they can't.  It is that they won't.  They must get the ball in the fairway and that will mean giving up yardage to do so.  

I just looked up the stats on the #1 hole from the 1994 U.S. Open.  #1 at Oakmont played 30 yards shorter back then and was the most difficult hole for the tournament averaging 4.5.  

You need to play this one a few times to really appreciate just how demanding it is.  It wasn't a "relatively easier" par for the best in the game in 1994 and it will still scare the hell out of every one of them as a starting hole in 2007.

[Garland Bayley]

Most of my friends at Oakmont (all pretty solid players) all tell me the way to play #1 is to hit it long and chip back up the slope. With that said, the first time I played it, I hit my drive in the bunkers left, chipped back to the fairway short, and then chunked my chip to the green and watched the ball to within 6 inches of the cup for a magical par .

As to which is more difficult, #1 Oakmont vs #1 Crystal Downs, I am going with Oakmont even though CD kicked my arse. The blind element to Oakmont along with their rough make that hole a brute. CD certainly has the rough, but everything is right in front of you and the green isn't nearly as tough.

I also give the nod to Oakmont versus Prestwick. Prestwick was a 5 iron wedge one putt birdie when I played there my one and only time. While it is intimidating on the tee with the people, no warm up, lousy food, and train, it is only a 5 iron for crying out loud.

I said the same thing yesterday. The better players at the club play long and chip back.

Since we are fighting over who said it first, look at Reply #21.

[Jim Franklin]

G -

I never claimed to have said it first, I was just making a comment that in talking to actual members, that is how they play the hole. But great minds do think alike .

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