[John Shimp]

Bob,
They are planning on closing May - Aug or thereabouts.  I'd love to get a group together.  Palmetto is not well known or heavily played amongst the gca group as far as I can tell.

Its also not that well known or heavily played or appreciated in SC.  The 75th state am played there this year got raves amongst the field and scga.  
JS

Tim,
Rhett Baker is still the GS.  Doing a great job.  Course is in wonderful condition despite having just killed the common bermuda in the fairways and tifdwarf on the greens.  Now playing on rye and poa trivialis.

[john_stiles]

As to Palmetto, it is a very sweet course which I visit every chance I get.  There is a wonderful flow to the course, up and down, and across the sandy area.

I think the PGC bunkering work is now complete and it looks very good to my eye.  The tree work so far has also been excellent, and hopefully it will continue as I have read in various bulletins.

One of my favorite photos shows Mackenzie, Bobby Jones, Devereux Milburn, and the Grace brothers walking together, presumably at ANGC.  Nevertheless, the Graces and Milburn were members at Palmetto GC so the photo does put Mackenzie 'face to face' with long term, influential leading members at Palmetto.

Back on topic, the photo below is another favorite that I always post when the discussion turns to ANGC, width, bunkering, and such.   Enjoy.

[Garland Bayley]

I would say that achitecturally and competitively Mackenzies mission statement for Augusta National remains fully intact.

And with no supporting evidence! Other than his crooked mind of course.

Then later he goes on to accuse others

...Why not share your homework with the class instead of playing the bully with name calling and conjecture.

John,

You indict yourself with your own words.

[John Kavanaugh]

I would say that achitecturally and competitively Mackenzies mission statement for Augusta National remains fully intact.

And with no supporting evidence! Other than his crooked mind of course.

Then later he goes on to accuse others

...Why not share your homework with the class instead of playing the bully with name calling and conjecture.

John,

You indict yourself with your own words.

Garland,

Simply read this entire thread and the thread I started on mission statements and you will see I was proven correct in my initial statement.  I simply state facts and the evidence soon follows from those with more experience and historical knowledge than me.  I indicted no one and only ask that we have discussions about architecture without name calling or intellectual bullying.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I wonder if MacKenzie would be surprised the course became an annual major championship venue. I don't think he anticipated that when he designed the course.

He would have to be surprised at that. It is only the Masters that has been the major played at the same course every year. It just wasn't done back in the day.

[Garland Bayley]

... you will see I was proven correct in my initial statement.  ...

I don't know what you are smoking, but I bet a lot of people would like to get their hands on some of it.

[Bill Gayne]

The first time I went to ANGC was in 1988 and the most recent trip was last year. Yes, the course has been narrowed but it is still a wide course as compared to US Open standards. For today's players, I think the second cut (yes, second cut not rough) has more effect than the trees.

[John Kavanaugh]

Damn, they sure did plant alot of trees in the last five years.  Ding, ding, ding, ding..Sarcasm alert, sarcasm alert.  Me thinks maybe they have been planting trees all along.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaka B,

They have.

Early and subsequent photos reveal the planting of young pines.

However, the corridors of play weren't intruded upon until recently.

And, that's the critical difference.

[John_Cullum]

However, the corridors of play weren't intruded upon until recently.

And, that's the critical difference.

The trees left of 14 and 15 certainly affected play of those holes, especially 15. the photograph shows 15 wide open. For all of my memory, a tee shot to the left side of the fairway has been blocked from going at the green.

I think the real panic set in when players started blowing it past the bunkers on 18. That radically changed the finish of the tournament.

[JESII]

"The surest way to challenge the best is to ask them to control the trajectory of their shots"

This quote is taken from Ran's synopsis of Augusta National in the Courses By Country section of this site.

Does the Augusta National Golf Club of today ask this of players in The Masters?

[BCrosby]

Of course it does.

I can't think of a top tier course where that is not true. You better be able to hit some high and some low. I guess I miss your point. What about that statement might distinguish ANGC?

Bob

[Craig Sweet]

It seems to me the one constant at ANGC is the premium placed on getting the ball in the proper location on the green...all else has changed a lot.

[JESII]

Bob,

No real point, I just happened to read through Ran's write-up and that line struck me.

I certainly was not trying to tie that into my other position on Augusta, and its members decision making rights.

Here's the close:

"At one point, Augusta National could have been considered amongst the two or three most innovative designs ever. The paucity of bunkers and its width of play were in stark contrast to the penal features found on the most revered U.S. courses at that time, including Pine Valley and Oakmont. However, the constant tinkering with the course has undermined this 'less is more' uniqueness."

Pretty strong.

[John_Cullum]

Of course it does.

I can't think of a top tier course where that is not true. You better be able to hit some high and some low. I guess I miss your point. What about that statement might distinguish ANGC?

Bob

Where during the playing of the Masters does the course dictate a player hit the ball low?

[BCrosby]

John -

The best thing about ANGC used to be that it dictated very little.

But you would probably want to hit a low ball to a back pin on 3 (that's what my caddy told me to do a couple of weeks ago), you would want to work a low shot left to right to a far right pin on 4 (Hogan had a great line about a playing partner that hit a high shot directly at that pin), a front pin on 5 because of the extreme backstop, maybe with front pins on 6. Last year, with the added length on 11 and a front pin on the first day, you saw people trying to bounce it onto the front. I think the low shot Tiger and other pros hit into 14 is the way to go, though that shot is not in my bag.

None of those shots are dictated by the course. But they make sense and some very good players play them. To their advantage, I assume.

Bob


 

[Patrick_Mucci]

However, the corridors of play weren't intruded upon until recently.

And, that's the critical difference.

The trees left of 14 and 15 certainly affected play of those holes, especially 15. the photograph shows 15 wide open. For all of my memory, a tee shot to the left side of the fairway has been blocked from going at the green.

You can see the saplings or small pines in the 15th fairway from the earliest photos.   For many decades tall pines blocked those on the left side of the 15th fairway from going for the green.[/color]

I think the real panic set in when players started blowing it past the bunkers on 18. That radically changed the finish of the tournament.

The bunkers on # 18 were created 32 years after the golf course opened, after the 1966 Masters, some say it was in response to Nicklaus's length and his wins in 1965 and 1966.

The hole's original fairway bunker would probably impact today's players had the Masters tees not been moved back about 60 yards from their original length.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

It seems to me the one constant at ANGC is the premium placed on getting the ball in the proper location on the green...all else has changed a lot.

Craig,

While that's generally true with EVERY golf course, the problem with analyzing ANGC is that it's typically done in the sole context of the golf course as it appears and plays during The Masters.

How fast do you think those greens will be this monday when the temperature will vary between a low of 26 and a high of 53 ?

How firm and fast do you think the fairways will be ?

You can't evaluate courses in the narrowest of windows.

Remember, ANGC closes shortly after The Masters and doesn't open again until October, so their season is limited to October through April or May, not exactly optimum weather and playing conditions in Augusta, Georgia

[Craig Sweet]

Sorry patrick...I was writing within the context of the Masters week regarding the greens..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Craig,

No need to be sorry.

The Masters week is THE week that we draw most of our visualizatons from.

It's the one week for many, many years that we all become familiar with the golf course.

Certainly it's a context worth discussing, but, it's not the sole context in which the golf course should be discussed.

I can remember the Bermuda days when I watched golfers slam 10 foot putts just to reach the hole.  I believe that some of these old highlights can be obtained.  They provide a sharp contrast to today's superfast greens.

Would Augusta be Augusta and The Masters, The Masters if the greens were still Bermuda ?

So, the course has changed, some for the better and some for the worse.

If I could do a few things it would be to return the width of the playing corridors and come out with The Masters competition ball.

Those would be two positive influences on all of golf.

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