WHO is saying that Macdonald didn't have any influence on Wilson? That's preposterous, and I haven't heard it from anyone on this thread. Could you please point me to the definitive post?
You are kidding right? Mr. Morrison has been questioning and denying just about every aspect of MacDonald's influence for at least two years now (as long as I have been in this particular conversation.) As far as finding the definitive post on this thread, that is likely impossible, as many of Mr. Morrison's posts have mysteriously disappeared. Either he deleted them himself out of embarassment about his own inaccuracies and rudeness, or they were deemed so obnoxious and inappropriate that they were deleted by the gca.com censors.
WHO is denying the historical record of Wilson's 2-day visit to Macdonald, his tour of NGLA, Macdonald suggesting an itinerary? Tell me, and I'll hunt them down and correct them for starting this train wreck!!
Again Mr. Morrison has denied and downplayed these events throughout, and insisted that no actual influence came from these contacts whatsoever. Surely you recall the
we don't know what they talked out . . . what advice about the trip? MacDonald was uninvited to Merion . . . there is no proof he listened to a single thing MacDonald said . . . what's the proof they actually looked at NGLA during Wilson's visit? type "inquiries" from Mr. Morrison and others. This is his methodology for minimizing and ultimately dismissing the influence altogether. He ignores the overwhelming evidence of contact and influence and instead insists on impossible proofs of actual conversations and specific on course copies of MacDonald's holes. And this is the methodology that you and others have bought into.
Just look at what he is doing now regarding the routing issue!
Who is denying that some of the authorities of them time; Macdonald, Lesley, Whigham, and perhaps Travis, called today's 3rd hole a Redan (however loosely, as has been proven and stipulated), the front bunker on 10 an "Alps like feature", and I believe someone quoted Travis talking about the 15th green being like an "Eden"? How could anyone possibly deny the written documented words those men used? If they did, point me in their direction and prepare to plug your ears as protection for my forthcoming verbal blast!
Are we reading the same posts? Throughout these conversations Paul and Morrison have downplayed these articles, implying that they are on par with some journalistic hack's misinformed account, suggesting that they aren't to be trusted, downplaying the fact that these are contemporary first-hand accounts by some of the foremost experts in the land. And others have followed suit. Patrick even denied that MacDonald said what is in a MacDonald bylined article!
Contemporary first-hand accounts are a historian's wet dream. Rarely does evidence get any better. Yet you guys treat this evidence like it all needs to be independently proven and like it is inherently untrustworthy. And all you base this on is some amateur psychoanalysis of MacDonald and others.
No, I don't think that's what happened here. I think instead you came forward and speculated that the old 10th hole was very, very similar to the Alps at NGLA, in elevation change, length, and shot values. Some of us said, no, that's not really possible. I went so far as to defend the fact that I understood why Lesley would call it an Alps due to the fronting bunker, and the likely blindness of the approach, but it ain't an Alps in the way Prestwick is and NGLA is.
Mike, although I wish you had done it before you posted this, I encourage to go back and look at my posts. This is a complete misrepresentation of what I have said. My posts are still there. Look at them and you will see that
-- I NEVER said it was very, very similar to the Alps.
--I said that the the newspaper account described it similarly, which it did.
--I also said that the overall elevation changes are similar, which they are, but readily acknowledged from the very beginning that the Alps hole was much more intimidating and felt like it played much more uphill.
--I NEVER said anything that would even suggest that the length was similar. In fact, I correctly pointed out that the drive on the 10th at Merion was about 20-40 yards shorter than you guys thought (depending on the tee.) And was resoundly verbally attacked and defamed for so doing. (Where was your sense of setting things straight then, by the way?) My measure would make the old hole shorter than thought, not longer!
-- I NEVER said it was an Alps in the way National or Preswick are. All I did was to try and understand why the contemporary experts thought it was an alps and called it an alps. That is what one does in historical research. But not what goes on here.
I find it amazing that the same people who will not draw even the most obvious conclusions on what Wilson learned from MacDonald are so willing to infer thoughts and motivations to me without any basis whatsoever.
Why would you have forwarded this hypothesis about the 10th hole if not to try to prove that Macdonald had some actual design input to Merion? I'm not understanding what you're trying to assert?
Again Mike, you are inferring motivations and agendas which never existed. I've explained to you what I am trying to do numerous times so if you havent figured it out I guess I will stop giving you the benefit of the doubt and simply infer that you have no interest in really understanding. After all, if you cant beat them, join them.
NO ONE is denying that, unless you can show us otherwise.
Not true. A large part of that Mr. Morrison and Paul are doing is trying to rewrite the history of MacDonald's influence.
I'm sure that his advice was invaluable. We all are. Without Macdonald's advice and early direction, Merion may have gone on a far different course. That's stipulated.
Are you joking? This has never been stipulated, at least not in any meaningful and lasting form.
However, after Wilson left Macdonald and NGLA he went to study overseas for EIGHT months. I don't know the exact days, but let's think about it...
Dont patronize me Mike.
David, and when he returned to the states he built a course that were less direct copies of those templates, straying from Macdonald's more direct copying model, and instead utilized their strategic aspects on the unique piece of ground that was located inland at Merion.
MacDonald's was not intended to be a direct copying model, at least not by others besides MacDonald and Raynor. By treating it as if it was, you have completely distorted the conversation.