[DMoriarty]

It did change dramatically in that time period! Who has ever denied that? Can we expect a point on your part in our future?

. . . The original East Course was not nearly as radical a departure as you credit it. . . .

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul & Wayne,

If one takes comments in the article at face value the golfer, on a 385 yard hole, would be left with a high pitch shot across Ardmore Ave.

If you calculate an area 385 yards from the green and then work backwards, placing yourself at at distance that would leave you a long, high pitch shot across Ardmore Ave, you can clearly establish the topography of the land between the old green at 385 yards from the tee, and the DZ off the tee.

That terrain is slightly rolling in nature, not steep or sharp by any stretch of the imagination.

That the putting surface might have been obscured by the berms for the road or even the crowning effect of the land, doesn't support the contention that the hole was an "alps" hole.

The "Alps" feature in an "Alps" hole was a pronounced obstruction, with a good deal of elevation between the DZ and the green, and not a berm similar in nature, but less elevated than the berms that shield the road on the 8th and 11th holes at NGLA.

If one stands in the DZ, the elevation is about 305 above sea level.  If one stands in the middle of the first fairway, about 50 yards from the green, the elevation is 312 above sea level or about a 7 foot incline.  

That topography wouldn't qualify as an alpine feature.
It's too gradual, and if the golfer's eye level was at 5 to 6 feet above the ground in the DZ, the elevation change from eye level in the DZ to the green would only be 1 to 2 feet, hardly the configuration of an "Alps" hole, and almost a certainty that the green would be visible, unless a berm was created where Ardmore bisects the fairway.

David, Mike Cirba and others have tried to insist that the 10th was an "Alps" hole, yet, the lay of the land, the elevation shootings are the strongest refutation of their argument, irrespective of what some article says.

Don't forget, we were told that Donald Ross stated that Seminole was flat.  Alleged quotes from Donald Ross were produced as evidence, yet, anyone who's ever been to Seminole knows that the elevation changes are SUBSTANTIAL AND DRAMATIC.

So, don't take what you read as The Gospel.

[DMoriarty]

"Yep.  And in America it appears to have started with a rejection of about 15 years of professional architecture, and a return to the links and to the heathland courses inspired by the links."

David:

Has anyone denied or even questioned that?

Are you serious?  Here is what you wrote above, my bolds added:

I don't think any of this can be viewed as a rejection of what was going on in Philadelphia or any other part of America at that time.

TEPaul  asked:

Let me ask you something David. If the author of that article and the esteemed Robert Lesley said that green surface couldn't be seen from the approach area why in the world would anyone think they'd be lying? Do you think they wanted to be viewed as blind and nuts in their time by hundreds of people who saw that hole?

Of course the green surface was blinded by that berm in front from the fairway approach.

But why are we even discussing this?

I don't know, why don't you ask Wayne, since he apparently disagrees with you?

[DMoriarty]

Wayne, it seems like you disagree with just about everything in this article . . . . So much for the paper of record.  

Have you ever posted the 1916 Flynn drawing?  If not, could you?  I'd love to get a look at it.  
_______________________________

Patrick,

I have never said the hole was an Alps Hole, nor do I have any interest in getting into a purely definitional debate.  

Could you do me a favor and go to GoogleEarth and compare the elevation changes at NGLA's Alps with Merion East's old tenth.   I was surprised at the similarities.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Patrick,

I have never said the hole was an Alps Hole, nor do I have any interest in getting into a purely definitional debate.  

So why did you ask these questions?

Another puzzle was whether CB MacDonald and his work significantly influenced the design of Merion, and/or whether MacDonald actually advised on the project.  

Another puzzle is whether the 10th could properly be called an Alps hole.  

Another puzzle was whether the green complex was modeled after that of Alps Holes.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Could you do me a favor and go to GoogleEarth and compare the elevation changes at NGLA's Alps with Merion East's old tenth.   I was surprised at the similarities.  

Google Earth also shows Mountain Lake's #3 Alps Hole as having 0 feet of elevation change. While the #3 Alps hole at Mountain Lake is no Alps hole, it does have some elevation change, and Google Earth is not perfect. GE also does not show any elevation changes around National's Alps green, which there surely are.

One man's opinion, no matter what google or old articles say, the 10th at Merion across the road to the now 1st fairway/green area was never an Alps hole, uphill and blind maybe, but not an Alps as the pitch of the hill is too gradual similar to Mountain Lake's inappropriately named Alps hole.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

It's hard to tell exactly what it was in front of that old 10th green or how high it was. That second photo above is probably the most indicative I've seen but you can only see a part of the left side of whatever was there.

Was it a berm? Was it some of those "Mid-Surrey" mounds (sometimes referred to as "alpinization") that appeared more clearly on the old 9th hole? It's hard to tell.

But if you look closely at that second photo above you can see some people lying on one of those things and a few people standing behind one, and it's not hard to tell it comes up to at least their waist and maybe higher.

Would that have been enough height directly in front of that green to blind the putting surface from the other side of Ardmore Ave?

Of course it would have.

Whatever that old green and surrounds looked llike something tells me the look of it wasn't bound to survive at Merion East anymore than the look around the 9th hole was, or perhaps even the 8th green.

Don't forget, PVGC went through some of that fairly rudimentary and obnoxious looking crap ("alpinization") about the same time. It didn't last at either course.

We sometimes forget how early those two courses were for quality inland architcture in America.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm not sure what Patrick's referring to because I've never called the old 10th at Merion an "Alps" hole.   I only suggested that it was probably blind, based on everything I know.

As you know, Macdonald and Raynor called any number of holes "Alps" holes; sometimes, like the one at Yeaman's Hall, they weren't blind at all.   I suspect at the time any hole on a new American course that featured blindness or some approach over something you couldn't see was called an "Alps".   Let's face it...in those early years, the idea of having something modeled after a British or Scottish golf hole concept was all the rage, whether it made sense consistently or not.

Was the 10th meant to be modeled after an Alps?   I have no idea and unless I saw some proof based on the leading knowledgeable authorities of the time, such as Hugh Wilson, or anyone directly involved in the original course building, I would never make such a claim.

Merion, unlike NGLA, was not intended to be directly imitative of great holes overseas.   Yes, I'm sure Wilson learned a lot from Macdonald and from his overseas visit, but what he brought back were conceptual ideas more than anything, not outright attempts to capture the key elements of great holes in the imitative fashion that Macdonald did at NGLA.   For instance, there's no "Road hole", there's no "Double Plateau", there's no "Leven", there's no "Biarritz", and the early accounts make clear that this was Wilson, not Macdonald, who designed Merion en toto.   I think suggestions that Macdonald was responsible really strain credulity, because even at that early time, the course at Merion looked nothing at all like the type of geometric design that Macdonald was noted for in all of his work.

I'm sure to add some authenticity to his product, Wilson may have been pleased that some saw the 3rd, where the green sits a bit obliquely on a tabletop shelf of land as approximating the demands of the redan, and features like the front of the 16th and 17th greens owe pay homage to the Valley of Sin, and Wilson may also have thought that having a blind hole like an Alps (he must have seen many blind holes on the great courses) was the sign of a sporty, challenging course, so he built one on 10.  

I think the key point here is the difference between influence and imitation.   Macdonald, throughout his career, (and later Raynor & Banks) leaned heavily towards the latter.   Wilson (and later Flynn) took those principles and Americanized them.

One thing that was very surprising to me looking at the Golf Illustrated pics of Merion from the Feb and Sept 1916 issues was how much the course looks similar in many respects to today's course.  The approach to the 16th, the drive on 4, the green at the 9th, the tee shot on 17, the approach at 7 all looked very cool, and with the exception of some bunkering added over the years, the course looked much further along at that point than what I truly expected to see.

[john_stiles]

This topic seems to get some odd back and forth.

But, you need to read the entire   December GI  1914  article.  

Lesley did say  “ The tenth hole has its tee far back in the woods and its green has for background a high hill covered with grass, and resembles the Alps hole at Prestwick;  in principle, that is a two shot hole with a cross bunker guarding the green. ”

Lesley said it resembles an Alps.

But, by my reading 92 years later,  this principle of ‘Alps’ was fairly broad as Lesley stated,  and not very well defined in today's modern terms as others have discussed in the thread.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

I have never said the hole was an Alps Hole, nor do I have any interest in getting into a purely definitional debate.  

So why did you ask these questions?

In that same post, I believe I noted that different people were solving different puzzles, and said exactly which puzzle interested me.  But you left that part out of the quoted "questions" you say I asked.
____________________

I dont entirely trust Google Earth earlier, which is why I said above that I wasnt confident in the elevation changes I had found so far.  

That being said,  Merion seems to have more elevation change(even if it is a  gradual incline) than some have assumed.  
____________________________

Can anyone explain to me what the author might have meant when he wrote about the "breastworks" and "ramparts" that the golfer had to scale?  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

This topic seems to get some odd back and forth.

But, you need to read the entire   December GI  1914  article.  

Lesley did say  “ The tenth hole has its tee far back in the woods and its green has for background a high hill covered with grass, and resembles the Alps hole at Prestwick;  in principle, that is a two shot hole with a cross bunker guarding the green. ”

Lesley said it resembles an Alps.

NO, that's not what Lesley said.

Lesley was refering to the incline behind the green with it's imbeded bunker as resembling the same feature in the Alps hole at Prestwick, and NOT the other features of both holes.  There's a clear distinction between being feature specific and broadly categorizing the holes within the same mold.[/color]

But, by my reading 92 years later,  this principle of ‘Alps’ was fairly broad as Lesley stated,  and not very well defined in today's modern terms as others have discussed in the thread.


The drive and approach shot a Merion bear no resemblence to the 17th at Prestwick.

The only similarity, in a general context, is the incline and bunker behind the green.[/color]

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I'm sure you're surprised that I don't agree with your interpretation of Lesley's remarks.    

If you read closer, he refers to the green background and high hill, but as part of describing the hole in entirety (he already talked about the tee in the first phrase).

If you take out his tortured grammar in the middle where he tries to cram too much into the sentence, the sentence would read;

"The tenth hole resembles the Alps hole at Prestwick; in principle, that is a two shot hole with a cross bunker guarding the green".  

That's what he's defining as an Alps.   Similar to the Alps at NGLA, and at Prestwick, there is a large, fronting, crossing bunker just short of the green.  

Personally, I have no idea whether Wilson or Flynn looked to design the 10th at Merion specifically as an Alps, or whether they were even inspired by the concept (I suspect not), but I do know quite clearly what Lesley was trying to convey.

[john_stiles]

Hi  Pat,

The posting was Lesley's description from the article.  And I mentioned that this attribute of being an Alps was a  generality in my opinion and that today, 92 years later, some take this much too literally.

Lesley's own words gave a broad  ' it resembles ' qualified by the ' in principal ' definition.  By the way, don't forget that Lesley also described it as having a cross bunker guarding the green. You left that out of your last line of ND green.

These GCA discussions have given me a 'general' idea of the old 10th and with the Flynn odd couple and others weighing in,  I accept the generalities having never seen the entire hole in an old photograph.

I think the 6th at the 'new' Merion was a downhill shot.    Let's see you put some green on this 1914 photo  

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Just an interesting tidbit from the George Bahto interview on this site, that discusses how the cross bunker in front of the green is integral to the definition of an "Alps", and likely what Lesley was referring to;

"Seth Raynor built an Alps on most courses, but they were generally identified as having 'Alps bunkering' - meaning some cross-bunkering in front of the green. Instead of a blind approach over a 'mountain,' Raynor customarily positioned his Alps renditions just over the crest of a rising fairway - then cross-bunkering the green complex."

[Kyle Harris]

Just an interesting tidbit from the George Bahto interview on this site, that discusses how the cross bunker in front of the green is integral to the definition of an "Alps", and likely what Lesley was referring to;

"Seth Raynor built an Alps on most courses, but they were generally identified as having 'Alps bunkering' - meaning some cross-bunkering in front of the green. Instead of a blind approach over a 'mountain,' Raynor customarily positioned his Alps renditions just over the crest of a rising fairway - then cross-bunkering the green complex."

The Alps here at Mountain Lake has little in common with the original.

It has the largest green on the course and a cross bunker covering a little over half the approach. The other half is unpinnable false front.

[Kyle Harris]

Before:


Today:

[mike_malone]

 Are there any better drive by holes than #6-7-8 at Merion West and #1-2-10-12-13 (and even more holes if you don't pay attention to the road !) at Merion East ?


  BTW  I thought Flynn was supposed to be an early agronomic genius .  There is  evidence at other courses of too many trees by tees and greens.

[Dan Boerger]

Tom - I was thinking the same thing! And for those of us fortunate enough to play Merion, I really admire the house to the right of the 11th (East), the walk up 14 (East) and also wonder just how many times my kids would interrupt anyon putting on 7 (East) if I lived in that house!

[Willie_Dow]

Mike's reply #29 assumes the tee box was where it is today.

Could it be that it was well to the right of the present tee box ?  Maybe back of the reservoir.

The article mentions a stroll through the woods.

[TEPaul]

The back tee on #10 certainly wasn't where it is now back then. Although there's never been much room back up in there I remember when they added some distance up there. It hasn't been all that long ago.

I agree with Wayne, I can't imagine that hole could've possibly been 385 yards when the green was across Ardmore Ave.

And if someone thinks that hole was a real "Alps" hole they're applying a very loose definition of an Alps hole, in my opinion.

[Mike_Cirba]

And if someone thinks that hole was a real "Alps" hole they're applying a very loose definition of an Alps hole, in my opinion.

Tom,

I think it's very clear from Lesley's writing that he's comparing the crossing bunker across the length of the front of the green (with it's corresponding high face or rampart) with similar characteristics at Prestwick.  

I think other comparisons I've heard in an effort to prove some involvement by Macdonald have been very unconvincing.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

If you read closer, he refers to the green background and high hill, but as part of describing the hole in entirety (he already talked about the tee in the first phrase).

If you take out his tortured grammar in the middle where he tries to cram too much into the sentence, the sentence would read;

"The tenth hole resembles the Alps hole at Prestwick; in principle, that is a two shot hole with a cross bunker guarding the green".  

The two holes are SO DISIMILAR that no one in their right mind would say that one resembles the other.  And, to isolate one feature that might be similar and expand that similarity, erroneously to cover the entire hole, is absurd.[/color]

That's what he's defining as an Alps.   Similar to the Alps at NGLA, and at Prestwick, there is a large, fronting, crossing bunker just short of the green.

There are large crossing bunkers guarding a myriad of greens, but that doesn't make those holes "Alps" holes.  You can't take one feature, while ignoring all the others, and equate the hole, with an "Alps" hole.

I guess you'd call the old 14th at GCGC an "Alps" hole by your definition..

An "Alps" hole gets its name from the definitive intervening feature incorporated into the hole, a steep hill between the DZ and the green.   No such feature ever existed on the 10th at Merion.

And, I believe my reading of Lesley's remarks are accurate, he was refering to the similarity of the features to the rear of the green, the incline with the imbeded bunker.[/color]  

Personally, I have no idea whether Wilson or Flynn looked to design the 10th at Merion specifically as an Alps, or whether they were even inspired by the concept (I suspect not), but I do know quite clearly what Lesley was trying to convey.

Then, you and Lesley are incorrect.

The 10th at Merion doesn't have an "Alps" feature, which is the critical and defining feature of the hole.[/color]

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

The built-up backdrop behind the original #10 green at Merion that provided protection to/from the first fairway has as much in common with the Alps hole at Prestwick as I do with Natalie Gulbis.

Lesley was clearly talking about the front crossing bunker, with the steep rampart face.   Don't you read anything by George Bahto?    

By the way, a very Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.   I trust we'll pick up this discussion over the weekend.  What should we call it...Jaws II?  

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul:  I understand what the terms "breastworks" and "ramparts" mean.  
_________________


Wayne, you say the site of the old green was only a few feet higher than the current approach.   What do you make of this description of ramparts and breastworks?   Surely those must have been more than a few feet higher that the current approach?

Anyone:

I am curious as to what features this particular author was referring when he described golfers scaling the breastworks and ramparts to finally get a look at their handiwork.  

Also, the recent photos make the old 10th green look lower than the surrounding ground almost all the way around.  Is it possible that the green area was hollowed out and lowered to build the ramparts and breastworks and to give the feeling of playing over a hill?  
____________________

One thing that amazes me is just how how much this reporter (whom I assume from the rest of the article was present at Merion) could get so much wrong!  The measure of the hole is wrong by 35 yards . . . the blindness of the shot is wrong . . . the breastworks and ramparts were apparently  delusions . . . I doubt if any NYTimes reporter has been so very wrong since, at least until Judith Miller started reporting on WMDs.  

[DMoriarty]

Tom Paul, you keep telling me that I should trust those who have been there and are familiar with the course, but not even those of you who fit into this category are in agreement.   For example, I don’t think Wayne has acknowledged that there were five foot breastworks and ramparts in front of the green (if there were any.)  Neither has Patrick.  More importantly, you weren’t there, Wayne wasn’t there, and I doubt even Patrick is old enough to have been there in 1916.   And, respectfully, you guys not only contradict each other, but also contradict the written opinions of those who were there.  

And it is not as if these men were hacks who didn’t understand golf or course design.  To the contrary, they were many of the biggest names in Philadelphia golf and design and American golf and design.  If I recall correctly, the previous thread established that, Tillinghast, MacDonald & Whigham, Leslie, and Findlay all specifically compared at least some aspects of the 10th at Merion East to those on an Alps hole.   Plus, Travis references that some famous  European features were incorporated into the course, but doesn’t specify those to which he is referring.   Add to this list the New York Times Article describing scaling breastworks and hillocks to finally get a look at the result of one’s approach, a description which echoes MacDonald’s description of approaching an Alps green and which seems to describe a fortress green like those on Alps holes.  

So instead of repeatedly asking me why I don’t trust you guys, perhaps you should be asking is: Why don’t you guys trust these highly respected sources?   After all, these men were there then, and (with the possible exception of the unidentified NY Times writer) they knew what they were talking about when it came to golf and/or golf architecture.


NOTE:  I am NOT saying that No. 10 at Merion East was an Alps hole, or that it was meant to be an alps hole, or even that any of its features were modeled after any features on any alps hole alps hole.   What matters to me is how the writers and designers of the time viewed Merion, and they viewed Merion as heavily influenced by the Links tradition and incorporating features and/or concepts from that tradition.  They also thought that Merion East represented a break with and significant improvement over what had passed for golf architecture in Philadelphia before.

Happy Thanksgiving to All.

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