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David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Flynn in the West
« on: November 20, 2006, 04:15:08 PM »
I guess this would be a Wayne and Tom question. Did Flynn do any design work further west than Cherry Hills?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2006, 04:29:43 PM »
Only if Denver CC is west of Cherry Hills CC  ;)

West of Ohio, Flynn did some work at Denver CC and Cherry Hills.  Near Chicago he did Pine Meadow, Mill Road Farm (NLE) and Glen View Club.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2006, 08:27:22 PM »
David,
As Wayne said, Flynn didn't do anything West of Denver.  In fact, the majority of his work was in states like PA, FL and NJ.  And as far as his work in the East, he didn't go past MA.  He actually never even traveled to the British Isles which is quite interesting.  

TEPaul

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2006, 09:50:33 PM »
"He actually never even traveled to the British Isles which is quite interesting."

Mark:

It is interesting Flynn never traveled to the British Isles. In my opinion, there're probably more reasons than we at first realize why he never did.

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2006, 10:17:06 PM »
"As Wayne said, Flynn didn't do anything West of Denver.  In fact, the majority of his work was in states like PA, FL and NJ."

Flynn also did a lot of work in the DC/MD/VA metropolitan area, in fact twice as much as he did in NJ.  NJ includes Pine Valley, Springdale, Woodcrest, Atlantic City CC and Seaview Pines.  In the DC area he did Beaver Dam, East Potomac, Rock Creek, Indian Spring, Manor CC, Town and Country, Burning Tree, Washington Golf and CC, US Naval Academy and Columbia CC.

TEPaul

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2006, 10:22:11 PM »
"He actually never even traveled to the British Isles which is quite interesting."

Mark:

Yes it probably is quite interesting Flynn never traveled to the Briitiah Isles.

Can you imagine why that may've been?  ;)

 

Mike_Cirba

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2006, 10:23:27 PM »
Tom,

Was he afraid of sea travel?

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2006, 11:02:16 PM »
"He actually never even traveled to the British Isles which is quite interesting."

Mark:

Yes it probably is quite interesting Flynn never traveled to the Briitiah Isles.

Can you imagine why that may've been?  ;)

 


Okay, what am I missing here??
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

TEPaul

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2006, 11:02:54 PM »
No, Mike, Flynn probably just didn't think he had to travel to the British Isles to figure out how to build quality architecture over here.

OH MY GOD, what a totally shocking thought!!!!   ;)

Is anyone ever going to figure out that there came a time when American architects just didn't feel the need to pay tribute to GB and its architecture?

Just read Tillinghast's "An Answer for Taylor". There's no better contemporary chronicle of where American architecture felt it had gotten to even before WW1 than that.

The problem with most on here, in my opinion, is they just have no sense of how to view golf architecture in the truth of the various times of its entire evolution.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 11:10:58 PM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2006, 07:38:10 AM »
Tom Paul said:

"The problem with most on here, in my opinion, is they just have no sense of how to view golf architecture in the truth of the various times of its entire evolution."

I guess we're not all as smart as you to recognize these things  ;)

Actually, I was just stating a fact that he never went further East than MA.  Now that you bring it up, how do you know that Flynn didn't feel he learned enough from Wilson's experience over on the other side of the pond?  Maybe he thought that was plenty?  

Also, why did Wilson feel he had to make the pilgrimage to the British Isles?  Do you think he was less arrogant than Flynn?  You make Flynn sound like he was this pompous individual who felt he didn't need to go study the origins of golf course design.  In your opinion, was he?

By the way Tom, your statement about architects not needing to pay tribute/homage to the past architects/architecture might be the reason guys like us have opportunities for "restoration".  No tribute was paid  ;)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 08:23:13 AM by Mark_Fine »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2006, 08:23:01 AM »
Quote
Is anyone ever going to figure out that there came a time when American architects just didn't feel the need to pay tribute to GB and its architecture?

Yes, it was called the age of Robert Trent Jones/Give the people what they want, in turn we'll act like we know what we are talking about.

this particular age or era spawned thousands of Golf Course Architects wanting the same recognition and utilized the same practices. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit....Yada, yada, yada.....

TEPaul

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2006, 08:36:59 AM »
"Now that you bring it up, how do you know that Flynn didn't feel he learned enough from Wilson's experience over on the other side of the pond?  Maybe he thought that was plenty?"

Mark:

That's exactly what I mean. At that point (perhaps around the early teens) Flynn probably did feel he'd learned enough from either WIlson or even the likes of what Tillinghast was getting into and writing about at that time. Interestingly, Tillinghast probably wrote that article "An Answer for Taylor" right around that time. In that article Tillinghast said;

"America is no longer the heathen country in which his golf pilgrimage found him. Since that day American progressiveness had given to the game the rubber-cored ball, which was only adopted grudgingly in Great Britain, but to which may be traced the real secret to the game's universal popularity. This same spirit of progressiveness has enabled this country to produce its own excellent clubs, develop its own professionals, its own golf architects, and to think its own thoughts. Once we gave ear to the words of the masters without question. Now we are pleased to listen just as attentatively, yet form our own conclusions with our own brains. In the jargon of the theater, "Waving the American flag has saved many a bad show". Let this not be an excuse for my defense of our modern courses. But it is because I believe that we have grown big enough to think for ourselves, I dare raise a voice to assert that Taylor's shot has not found our green."

It seems the likes of Flynn and Wilson, and perhaps Crump and Thomas of the Philadelphia School had come to feel as apparently Tillinghast (the other member of the Philly School) did at that time---not to mention Macdonald, Emmet, Travis et al.

"Also, why did Wilson feel he had to make the pilgrimage to the British Isles?  Do you think he was less arrogant than Flynn?  You make Flynn sound like he was this pompous individual who felt he didn't need to go study the origins of golf course design.  In your opinion, was he?"

I think Wilson traveled to the British Isles because Macdonald told him to and he realized, as Macdonald did at that time, that the British Isles was the only place at that time that did have good architectural models to study. In 1910 what were the good courses in America to study? Myopia? NGLA? Wilson (and committee) did go to NGLA for two days to meet with Macdonald and study his course.

Mark, Flynn worked for Wilson in the teens. He was a young man learning the art form in the early teens and from the likes of Merion East we can see there was plenty there to learn. I think Ron Prichard is probably right in saying the unusual (at that time) Merion bunker style may've been the prototype for what became the generic American bunker shape.

I did not make Flynn seem like he was arrogant or pompous at all. That is merely some odd interpretation on your part. What you need to understand better is where some of those guys felt American golf architecture had gotten to at that point.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 08:41:27 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2006, 08:45:24 AM »
"By the way Tom, your statement about architects not needing to pay tribute/homage to the past architects/architecture might be the reason guys like us have opportunities for "restoration".  No tribute was paid.  :)

I'm not at all sure what it is you mean by that Mark. What architects not wanting to pay tribute to what past architects/architecture?  

Mike_Cirba

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2006, 09:39:18 AM »
Tom,

That's sort of a strange statement coming from Tillinghast, who for many years made annual pilgrimages to Scotland.

I think his statement is self-serving, and defensive, and probably rightly so.   I think Tillinghast was comfortable and even proud with how architecture in America was evolving at that point, and even if there were some penal excesses, I think Taylor was way overly critical, probably based on nationalistic ideas of his own.   To me, Taylor was simply saying these new American courses couldn't be all that because they weren't invented here (Great Britain).  
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 09:41:27 AM by Mike Cirba »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2006, 09:41:53 AM »
Tom,
You stated:

"Is anyone ever going to figure out that there came a time when American architects just didn't feel the need to pay tribute to GB and its architecture?"

Maybe I was wrong, but this sounded to me (I guess to Tommy as well) that you felt that American architects like Flynn believed that there was no need to learn from the past.  Just go ahead and do your own thing and not worry about what was done before you.  

Maybe you can explain what you meant by that statement?

ForkaB

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2006, 09:48:57 AM »
Mark

Lay off of Tom.  He is very conscious of his relatively limited knowledge of the great courses in Europe and is just trying to justify his own experiential ignorance by praising Flynn's. ;)

Rich

Phil_the_Author

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 10:16:19 AM »
Mike, you wrote:

"That's sort of a strange statement coming from Tillinghast, who for many years made annual pilgrimages to Scotland.

I think his statement is self-serving, and defensive, and probably rightly so.  I think Tillinghast was comfortable and even proud with how architecture in America was evolving at that point, and even if there were some penal excesses, I think Taylor was way overly critical, probably based on nationalistic ideas of his own.  To me, Taylor was simply saying these new American courses couldn't be all that because they weren't invented here (Great Britain)."

Tilly went to Scotland 3 times, 1895, 1898 & 1901. Each of these trips were in the company of and financed by his father B.C. In fact, it was his father who taught Tilly the game in the early 1890's and who decided to make the first trip.

Why though should these trips serve as any basis for making his numerous comments, for it wasn't limited to the single Response to Taylor article, become "self-serving and defensive," especially when you state that they were "rightly so" in their content?

Tilly took great exception to numerous British writers who had begun to criticize not just the design of golf courses, but the talent of the players and their abilities to compete against the "superiority" of the british players and their courses.

For example, he wrote, "“In most of the journals which are devoted to golf, we constantly find the most absurd references to the game and its play in this country. Our golf is altogether freakish and our players mad fanatics. When Mr. Henry Leach visited us last summer he returned
to England praising our courses, our golf and our men. His references to American golf in the British periodicals are as an oasis in the desert. We can only deplore the fact that other writers have not visited our country, that they might know whereof they speak…"

Sort of interesting how Tilly would chastise these writers for being critical of courses and players that they had never seen because they had never stepped foot in America.

He also chastised them rather pointedly in a somewhat mocking tone when he wrote, "Golf in America is a dignified, firmly established institution, and we are big enough to ignore many thoughtless, but nevertheless unkind, thrusts. No doubt they are intended to be humorous, and if they chance to amuse the British readers as much as they amuse us, although in different vein, they may be classed with such popular successes as ‘Wot Ho! She Bumps!’…
      “Joking aside, gentlemen, it does get under the skin a bit when you devote your space to an almost reverent analysis of the game of Daudi Chwa, the black monarch of Uganda, and his course at Kampala, and on the same page flippantly refer to ‘Goat Golf ’ as the popular form of game in America. We are rather inclined to regard golf as a game for gentlemen throughout the world, and far too great a game to be restricted by the bounds of nations..."

Actually Tilly was the perfect person to make this defense. He had Captained the 1904 team of United States players in the international matches played in and against Canada. His personal game in those years was pretty good, having competed in many USGA events and being the 2nd lowest handicapped player in the very first Golf Association of Philadelphia player handicapping.

He HAD seen many of the great courses in Britain, unlike the writers he was criticizing, and played against and knew most of the great players from there. They would routinely visit him when they came to America and he wrote often of these visits.

No, his comments weren't "self-serving." They were spot-on correct and proper.

Was his ego involved, of course. Was what he wrote a product of ego? No.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2006, 10:19:11 AM »
Not even Mark or Wayne know this, but Flynn lived briefly in Phoenix and created the not defunct Totem Hills. It was grand design...I played it before Rees remodeled it in the 1960s. Now, of course, the land is Sky Harbor Int'l Airport. Most of the clubhouse remains as Old Terminal 1.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

wsmorrison

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2006, 10:41:32 AM »
Forrest,

Are you serious?  If so, that would be interesting indeed.  Will you share your sources and assist us on this course write-up?  I'll check with Flynn's daughter after the holiday to see if she knows anything.  What year did this occur?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2006, 10:54:10 AM »
Philip,

Are those the three trips in which he took so many pictures of The Old Course and developed a good friendship with Old Tom Morris?   And then, nothing again, ever?

I used the term self-serving, simply because Tillinghast was an architect of many of these very same courses that were being generally criticized by guys like Taylor.  So, he took a very strong defensive position, and didn't concede an inch.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2006, 10:56:14 AM »
Wayne,
You didn't know my co-author was wealth of knowledge  ;D
I'm sure he will help you out!  Of course you will have to buy him a cup of coffee (Starbucks is his favorite) and take him out for a nice meal  ;)
Mark

ForkaB

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2006, 10:56:50 AM »
When I was doing real estate development work in Phoenix, many moons ago, they had daily flights from Terminal 1 to Foulpointe.  Now those were the days.......

Phil_the_Author

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2006, 11:11:05 AM »
Mike,

Yes, he never went back overseas after the 1901 trip. No one in the family knows why.

I understood that you meant "self-serving" in that vein, and normally I would agree with you if his responses were limited to just comments about course design, but they weren't.

He was primarily commenting on their criticisms as to how the game in America was being played and then commenting on the criticisms leveled on course design.

Also, at the time of his writing these thoughts, he had only designed Shawnee and maybe one or two others and so the idea of his taking offense on behalf of his personal designs also doesn't really come into play.




Mike_Cirba

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2006, 11:13:05 AM »
Thanks for correcting my understanding, Philip.  

TEPaul

Re:Flynn in the West
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2006, 11:16:01 AM »
"Maybe I was wrong, but this sounded to me (I guess to Tommy as well) that you felt that American architects like Flynn believed that there was no need to learn from the past.  Just go ahead and do your own thing and not worry about what was done before you.  

Maybe you can explain what you meant by that statement?"

Mark:

It sounds to me like TommyN was thinking more about the many, many architects of the modern age who didn't see much connection to the past and the architecture of GB and such.

We all know how true that was. That's probably why it was considered so unusual that Pete Dye actually went back over there with Alice and studied that architecture for about half a year. He was essentially considered to be the first to do something like that in many decades. Who had done anything like that, and that way, in the preceding 50 or so years?

It seems to me Flynn very much felt things were moving forward in architecture in America fast---a lot faster than they were over there. There's no question that Flynn could be sort of humorously critical of some of the mindset of architects from the other side. His remarks about the abhorence of linksmen regarding trees is one very good example. He made a very good joke of that particular fixation.

Wayne and I have come to refer to Flynn as perhaps the first of the true transition architects from the old ideas to what was happening into the end of the golden age and perhaps what was coming in the future. It would've been very interesting to see where his architecture would've ended up if he worked for another 20-25 years in the early RTJ/Dick Wilson era.

You may say that the fact that Flynn may not have seen the need to go to GB is pompous and arrogant but I don't see it that way at all.

I think he just felt some really interesting things were happening in America in architecture as the so-called "Golden Age" progressed and he was here riding those things and that wave and being a part of it, probably a most important part of it in many ways.

Things were happening in architecture over here at that time faster and perhaps more qualitatively and quantatively then anywhere else in the world. I'm sure you understand that.

So what was pompous or arrogant about Flynn remaining here and being an important part of it?