Old Sandwich w/ Images

[Josh Smith]

Old Sandwich in Plymouth MA is a recent effort from Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw.  However, you would have sworn the course had been there for decades and there really isn't anything recent looking about it.  With the unbelievable maintenance meld and the design imperfections all over the ground, it PLAYS and FEELS like a step back in time.

Here's hoping Ran Profiles this course soon...

Mr. Coore, the gentleman that he is, arranged for my visit as I was seeing different courses gathering painting inspiration this summer. The good fortune was granted to me to play and photograph some holes with the thought of maybe doing an oil painting out there someday.  Also, permission was granted to post these photographs, otherwise the thought would NEVER have crossed my mind.  

 This is the view from the teeing ground on a mid lenth par three with many fun pin locations.  I believe it is the 15th hole.

 This is the view from the first landing area on a par five.  The bunker on the right is one of my favorite on the course.  The placement of the centerline bunker in the second landing area creates plenty of doubt in your mind as you hit your second.


This is the unique short par 4 fifth hole measuring 336 yds.  The green is the flattish area far left.  Native blueberry bushes are pictured down in the canyon and work there ways through the native areas all over the course.  A unique feature at OS.  The view above is from the teeing area and the view below is from the left rough near the approach.



This picture above is the view from in front of the sandy waste area and green on the par four seventh which measures around 390 yards.  The photo below is a view looking back on the hole from back left of the green.





The photo above is a view from the tee of a mid length par three that was one of my favorites.  The photo below is a view looking back towards the tee on the same hole which shows the unique approach area that lays in wait if you overshoot the green. This occurs a lot at Old Sandwich.  The area in shade is about where the green stops and the rear approach begins.




This view above is of the landing area on the par 4 12th hole, 455 yds.  The lighting shows the rumpled fairway and the bunkering that is extremely important to this great driving hole.



Hole two is a par 4 403 yds. slight dogleg right with a group of imposing centerline bunkers and plenty of fairway left of these that is not pictured.

Given this course is built in native sand, the conditions are perfect and hitting the ball along the ground is not only an option, but is more often than not the best option.

Special thanks to Sean M. and Mr. Coore for this opportunity.  Hope all you guys enjoy this glimpse into what is a truly a rare bird.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Josh,

Great photos.  Old Sandwich really is a unique and special place.  The fescue surfaces play firm and the fairways are quite rumpled which make for numerous uneven stances.  The routing makes for an extremely easy and enjoyable walk, tees are often just a few paces from the previous green.  And speaking of greensites, they are some of the most interesting around.  As Josh mentioned, the tie-ins with the surrounding areas blend seamlessly and there are many collection area extensions or bunkers that will collect trickling balls off the greens.  Add in the fact that they play quite firm and approaches are quite demanding.    There is a lot of short game interest there, you could go out with just a putter and wedge and have a great time.  

Josh, do you have any pics of the short par 3 9th hole or the par 5 13th hole?  

[Chris Cupit]

Absolutely gorgeous.  I love the slightly yellowed color of the bunker sand.  The color and jagged edges of the bunkers blend perfectly with the resy of the course and grasses/textures.

The second picture of the par 5 fairway bunker looks a little
"whiter" than the rest but I am guessing the actual sand looks like the other pictures.

Stunning

[Aaron Katz]

I've been looking in vain for pictures of Old Sandwich.  This post made my day.  I played in Plymouth last weekend and tried to get a peak at OS on the way back home, but the place is locked down like a fortress.  Aside from hiking through the woods for several hundred yards, I'm not sure an interloper can get a peak at the place.

It's amazing how much different OS looks from the rest of Plymouth's offerings, which I have found did not meet my expectations.  The land in Plymouth is hilly, but it often doesn't make for ideal golf IMO -- the slopes are often so extreme that the holes can only make repetitive use of them (i.e. glacier kettles on one side, or playing in the saddle of two large hills).  OS, however, looks just incredible.  

[Brad Tufts]

All I will say is wow....can't wait to see this place someday...

Aaron,

I think that Plymouth offers some very good golf.  You are correct that the courses do look alot alike, as they are all built on basically the same terrain.  I have a co-worker who lives in Plymouth and loves golf, but the town's situation is such that he will likely never want to join a club.  They now have 6 or 7 public options as well as a couple privates.

I find the Pinehills courses to be very resorty, with lots of earth moving and mounding to fit the holes up and down the glacial till.  However, they are both great tests of golf, the Nicklaus course greater than the Rees course.  Atlantic is much of the same, although a bit more playable, and Waverly Oaks is another that is quite good, a quirkier Pinehills from the beginning of Brian Silva's Raynor period.

I would rank the Plymouth courses thusly:

Plymouth CC
Waverly Oaks
Pinehills Nicklaus
Pinehills Rees
Atlantic
Crosswinds

I imagine OS would be up with PCC, but I haven't seen it as of yet.  
I wonder if the market for public or private golf in the area is saturated yet, as Boston GC just opened as well about 10 miles north of OS.

[George Pazin]

Thanks for posting, and well done on the photography. You have an terrific eye for capturing revealing photos - most don't exhibit the landforms nearly as well.

* Just put two and two together and realized why you have such a good eye. Hope we can see the painting someday, if you do one.

[Gary_Mahanay]

Josh,

Those were some awesome pics!  What kind of camera did you use?  There looked to be some pretty big boulders on site.  Were there very many rocks in the playing corridors?

Gary

[Paul Payne]

I look the look sof the course even better than the name. It seems to have a bit of a Stranzian quality. Some of the holes look like they could have been plucked right off of TR.

[Mike_Cirba]

Josh,

Thanks for posting the pictures here.  One of my biggest regrets in recent years is that I had an invite to play OS but couldn't stay an extra day in town due to work demands.  It does look like great fun and is certainly visually appealing.

Jimmy,

I'm not sure I'd use the word "unique", based on what the pictures show.   If you take a look at the Hidden Creek profile on GCA, it looks remarkably similar.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing; quite the contrary, in fact.   I'm just not sure that it's anything markedly different or groundbreaking from what I've seen from them previously.

Is it?

[Jason Blasberg]

I'm not sure I'd use the word "unique", based on what the pictures show.   If you take a look at the Hidden Creek profile on GCA, it looks remarkably similar.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing; quite the contrary, in fact.   I'm just not sure that it's anything markedly different or groundbreaking from what I've seen from them previously.

Is it?

Old Sandwich is Hidden Creek on about a 20% larger scale with more undulation.  It's a fine course but not at all unique.  It's the major criticism that I have of the C&C portfolio, it's becoming redundant in places.

 

[Tim Copeland]

What is the maintenance budget??

[Mike_Cirba]

Old Sandwich is Hidden Creek on about a 20% larger scale with more undulation.  It's a fine course but not at all unique.  It's the major criticism that I have of the C&C portfolio, it's becoming redundant in places.

Jason,

Would that be 20% larger width-wide, length-wise, or just based on overall elevation change?

From the pictures, it's difficult to tell, but I'm seeing marked similarities, with perhaps a trifle bit more use of sand than at Hidden Creek.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I just tuned in here and my first reaction was the Hidden Creek similarity. I guess I'm not alone.

[Mike_Cirba]

I just tuned in here and my first reaction was the Hidden Creek similarity. I guess I'm not alone.

Steve,

I was hoping that it wasn't just me.   I do tend to be perhaps overly visually-oriented.  

[Tom Dunne]

First group of good photos that I've seen of OS. Thanks, Josh! Should be a fine canvas indeed....

[Jason Blasberg]

Jason,

Would that be 20% larger width-wide, length-wise, or just based on overall elevation change?

From the pictures, it's difficult to tell, but I'm seeing marked similarities, with perhaps a trifle bit more use of sand than at Hidden Creek.

20% more width and elevation, I didn't notice a significant length difference.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Well my typically overly analytical rater buddies have dropped the ball here.  

I see an sand island green on a short 4, I see diagonal carries across natural vegetation, I see a trench bunker. Things that I have not seen from C&C. Now that they have perfected all the things that many on this site love (width, f&f, wild greens, short 4's), we throw them under the bus because it is not unique. How about if the critics would offer a suggested change, rather than a quick critique and run.

Well guess what, Hidden Creek is unique in the Philly market same as OS is probably unique in the Boston market. They are obviously built in similar sandy pine tree areas, with OS seeming to have some more elevation. Why would they change the formula? To satify a bunch of raters who obviously travel way too much and way too far! How about the members who will obviously join because it is unique.

I only wish they would be redundant closer to me in Connecticut.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

All I believe I said is that it's not unique and looks a heckuva lot like Hidden Creek to me.   There are certainly worse comparisons, frankly.  Steve Shaffer's not a rater and he saw the same thing.

If we point out courses as "typical Rees", or "typical Fazio", I think it's only fair that we do the same with some of our favorites.  That's neither good nor bad, inherently, and if someone likes the style, who cares except us golf course nerds, as you point out correctly?  

I think Tom Doak made the exact same point about PGA West in the "Confidential Guide", when he said he wasn't as impressed by it as he might have been because he already saw Dye do it first and better at TPC Sawgrass.   I had the exact same reaction playing Bulle Rock, having played Blackwolf Run River a few months prior.    

However, I also think that one of the things I look for is originality, creativity, and something that pushes the design envelope, which is why I was so enamored with Lederach, for instance.   Perhaps that's jaded, or perhaps it's overly finicky, but I do know that it's not easy to do and I also know that in any art form, unless it's moving forward, it's probably getting stale.

As great as those early records were, if the Beatles were still singing updated versions of "Please, Please Me", or "I Want To Hold Your Hand" in 1968, they would have risked becoming irrelevant and stale.  Yes, they would have held onto their core following, but they wouldn't have advanced the art form.

Thankfully, they continued evolving.   What's that line from Bob Dylan about he who isn't busy being born?

[Jason Blasberg]

Well guess what, Hidden Creek is unique in the Philly market same as OS is probably unique in the Boston market.


. . . .

How about the members who will obviously join because it is unique.

Mike:
Unique designs that I've played by C&C are FH, the Plantation Course and Cuscowilla, (obviously SH but I've not played it)but after playing both HC and OS I would not call either unique.  Both are fine courses but do not burn into your memory the way the others do.  

BTW, there's nothing as unique in the Boston market as Boston Golf Club!!!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike& Mike

I forgot to add to my post the Seinfeld line- "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

I'm curious to see Colorado GC up close and personal.

Steve

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike S.,

Unfortunately, as I mentioned, I haven't played OS.  So remember that I'm only sharing my impressions based on the pictures provided.

However, Jason has played there and confirmed my insights.

I'm not sure why the work of C&C is beyond critical discussion around here and why I'm feeling that I need to defend pointing out that OS looks almost exactly like HC.   There's nothing wrong with saying that they're possibly becoming a bit too formulaic, is there?  

You know, frankly, there are a lot of other folks here who I'm certain are thinking the exact same thing as I am, including many who feel very unafraid of venturing an honest opinion about something that's happened 80 years ago, but for some unknown reason they feel that this topic, or anything relating to the most minor criticism of a C&C course is "untouchable".  Disappointing, really...but I guess on some level understandable.  

Sheesh...the day I become a fan instead of an impassioned, but passionate observer is the day I lose all objectivity.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Old Sandwich and Hidden Creek do indeed share some similarities, but since they are on sites that also have some things in common and built by the same architects, that is to be expected.  I definitely don't understand the few criticisms cited about similar looking or formulaic.  One of the things that I enjoy about many of the golden-age architects is that you can see common traits between many of their courses.  The Tillinghast courses around Westchester have a lot in common, the Flynn courses around Philly have a lot in common.  All Raynors have a lot in common.  I don't find that to be a negative with any of those....

I find Old Sandwich much more difficult and demanding than Hidden Creek.  It's fairway bunkering is placed particularly well, especially when you play from the proper set of tees.  There is much movement on the ground and the very firm surfaces make the ball bounce all over the place.  The fescue surfaces are what really bring the design to life.  The player has numerous options over every shot as to best approach a flag.  Combined with the present wind and it makes for fun golf.

In many ways, Old Sandwich is a very subtle golf course.  It doesn't show it's full hand after one play and many features will go unnoticed until your ball end up in one.

[John Kirk]

Well guess what, Hidden Creek is unique in the Philly market same as OS is probably unique in the Boston market. They are obviously built in similar sandy pine tree areas, with OS seeming to have some more elevation. Why would they change the formula? To satisfy a bunch of raters who obviously travel way too much and way too far! How about the members who will obviously join because it is unique.

I only wish they would be redundant closer to me in Connecticut.

As it turns out, they have deeply satisfied Golfweek raters, who place Old Sandwich as the second best new course for 2004/2005, right behind Bandon Trails.

I agree with Mike Sweeney here, that each metropolitan area benefits greatly by having one of these beautiful C&C courses, though they may look similar when compared on a national level.  The "look" has much to do with the mature forest and selected grasses.  By the way, the Fazio course at Pronghorn looks quite similar to this, and I believe Mr. Fazio has adopted elements of the "look" because of its popularity.

Many of the pictured holes would not look out of place at Bandon Trails.  Not so much Friar's Head, which has much different terrain and vegetation.  And nothing yet looks like Sand Hills.

I agree with Mike Cirba too.  I'm shy to criticize or even analyze, especially since it is pretty well known I'm a big fan of Tom D's courses.

Anyway, it looks very nice.  Thanks for the pictures, Josh.

[Mike_Sweeney]

By the way, the Fazio course at Pronghorn looks quite similar to this, and I believe Mr. Fazio has adopted elements of the "look" because of its popularity.

Mike,

John said it better. I love the look of the Fazio course at Pronghorn too. You are reading too deep into the C&C thing.

One could even argue that Ran and GCA.com popularized "the look" that we are now seeing from modern architects. Fazio at Pronghorn, Rees to a lesser extent, but still there (below), at The Golf Club at Cape Cod. Coore & Creenshaw repeating.



I am not sure if Doak has ever had a site on sandy soil cut through Pine trees. Pronghorn may not be Pine trees, but it looked similar. Now let's look at the alternatives that C&C could have chosen from for sites on sandy soil cut through the trees:

Stone Harbor - we have jumped on Desmond grave enough around here

Hampton Hills - the prototypical 1970's Frank Duane course cut through very narrow paths mainly straight holes. I can't remember 1 hole, and while it has been many years, I think that was a great site.

The Bridge - see Stone Harbor

Shore Gate - Mike Cirba, you have said a number of times how they tried to do something different, tried to do something interesting, had good intent......but missed the mark here. I have no idea how much the OS land cost, but let's assume it was $10 mm+. Does the deveoper want what works or what may work from the architect.

Pine Valley - okay that is arguably the mother ship for this look

Sand Barrens - interesting when it opened, but when the third nine came in, it became all so similar.

Cherry Creek - The Woods - Jason may know it, next.

Tobacco Road - Ok now we are talking, but that is not a C&C thing, and I would be okay with C&C getting criticized for not moving enough dirt on certain sites. Certainly Doak the minimalist is a marketing term after The Rawls Course.

Pinehurst #2 - I like Donald Ross, but I do not love him, and now that I think of it, I prefer the look of Forrest Creek Fazio (NC) to all the Pinehurst courses.

Mike Cirba and Jason, my question still stands. What should C&C have done differently? Are you talking about specific features, problems with the routing or just the philosophical "the look" which GCA has popularized and is now throwing under the bus without an alternative.  

What is so unique about Boston Golf Club?

[Matt_Cohn]

Who cares if two private clubs in different cities are similar? Surely the overlap of frequent golfers at the two courses will be extremely minimal.

It's quite an American thing to make yours different from the other guy's solely for the sake of being different. That's why, when we go to dinner in this country, it's common practice for everyone at the table to order something different.

In other countries people order what looks tastiest and they don't worry if someone else has the same thing. They're only concerned about the meal they're eating. (Oversimplification, I know.)

I'm sure nobody from HC or OS will lose sleep over their course being similar to the other guy's.