[Ian Andrew]

When you look back in history there are so many romantic stories about the greatest architects and their use of alcohol while creating their best work. The romantic pictures are the ones of Tillinghast with bottle in hand directing the shapers while on site, or Stanley Thompson with a glass of scotch in one hand and a paint brush in the other.

But there is another side to these famous men’s lives and to the men who live the same way today. There are also many stories of A.W. Tillinghast going completely missing for four or five days a time not showing up on site or at home. He would begin a drinking binge that would run for days before finally returning to the work and household that he left behind. He was a man living a lifestyle that he could never maintain and eventually lost his home despite all his success as an architect.

I have heard a couple of first hand accounts of Stanley Thompson’s drinking. In one account I was told of an instance where a young man working at Cutten Club didn’t know whether to stop Stanley, who had grabbed a Mickey from the bar, since he was now having trouble getting it in his pocket. The members told the boy to leave him alone since he owned the club. He convinced the other members he should stop him, and promptly told Stanley “there’s already a Mickey in that pocket Mr. Thompson." The story is quite funny, but there is a dark side to this story too.

A lot of you guys (or at least Tom Paul) love to suggest that modern architects just need to grab a flask and loosen up to create architecture like the Golden Age (he sent me one which I share when playing in the cold or rain – but not when working). They fail to understand that the modern architect is expected to carry themselves in a professional manner at all times. Owners are able to choose from a lot more architects and set down there expectations for the project; we live in a time where somebody’s personal issues are not tolerated for very long.

I’ve been asked why a couple of really talented architects can’t seem to get more work. The answer is the bottle and it’s too bad that it’s limiting their careers. Even when we go back in history, it makes you wonder how many great careers were either ruined or shortened by alcohol abuse.

I’ve always wondered if:
1.   The stories are exaggerated
2.   how much the bottle has robbed us of some great architecture
3.   how much it’s robbing us right now of some really talented people who can’t keep there life together

[ed_getka]

Ian,
   That's a shame that there are some guys out there struggling with personal issues by drinking and wasting the talent they possess, but unfortunately it doesn't seem that unusual in creative types for some reason.
    Congratulations on the work you are doing. I read the Travis book last month and was delighted to see your involvement with some intriguing courses. That book was a very unexpected surprise. I had no idea how many contributions Travis made to golf.
    I even saw an article you wrote on that trip last month, but forgot to email you about it. It sounds like your career move is working out nicely so far. Keep up the great work.

[TEPaul]

"The romantic pictures are the ones of Tillinghast with bottle in hand directing the shapers while on site,"

Ian:

For God's Sake Man, get a grip on yourself.

Tillinghast would never have been caught dead with a bottle in his hand in the field. That is one of the most gauche things imaginable.

A flask, my good man, not a bottle. A FLASK and A SHOOTING STICK and lots of exuberant and talented arm-waving!

BTW, for those in the know, it's not that hard to tell a green Tillinghast designed in the morning with a hangover compared to one he designed in the late afternoon when his flask was close to done and he was extra smart.

[Bob Jenkins]

Ian,

I will have to go home and pour myself a stiff one to loosen me up and get you a comment!

Actually, drinking habits seem a lot different now. The 3 martini lunch is a thing of the past. Working people and professionals just do not get into it so much.

Then again, I have seen a few courses where the end result looks like the architect could have had a drinking problem, Furry Creek just north of here.

That is great story about Thompson.

[Sean Leary]

Bob,

For Furry Creek, that would be an LSD problem, not a drinking problem.

We need to play there together just to take pictures to post on here.  I bet pictures wouldn't do it justice though..

[TEPaul]

Ian:

Seriously, yours is a very interesting question. I should say questions.

It is certainly an interesting question historically.

While some of those stories probably have been somewhat exaggerated over time, I feel that the difference with not just those men back then but the entire culture of that era in how it used and looked at drinking, and even drinking to excess, is just so different from the way we look at the subject of drinking and drinking too excess today.

But I can tell you from first hand experience in knowing and watching my father's generation and some of those who're talked about on here, that yes, the drinking and drinking to excess is today nothing at all like it could be and often was back then.

The reasons why that was so are probably worth examining and discussing.

[Bob Jenkins]

Sean,

I agree.

The spectacular views tend to distract you from the crappy course so photos will, as you say, tend to make it look too good. The way it has been raining around here the last few weeks, the whole place may wash into the inlet.

It is just the opposite for links courses which tend to look dull in photos, at least until you know what you are looking for.

Sounds like you have  a good trip lined up to the east coast next week.

[Sean Leary]

Bob,

Going home for Thanksgiving, thats all.  Just one round, but it should be fun.  Can't you take that jet of yours and join me?

[TEPaul]

Ian:

Here are some examples;

I actually remember Dick Wilson. He was the absolute favorite architect of my Dad's and that whole group in South Florida around Gulf Stream and Seminole back in those days. Dick Wilson really was an alcoholic. Those guys would go out drinking together and they sure did get knee-walking drunk. A lot of them were alcoholics, including my Dad.

Dad played golf most every day in the winter in Florida with Tommy Armour. Armour didn't drive a car and Dad would pick him up every morning around 11am (Armour lived right down the street). They'd generally go out to the Delray Beach CC where they had something of a "THRONE" for Armour to sit on.

Armour would sit on his throne and tell stories and hold court while he drank gin bucks and then they all had lunch.

Dad said Armour would have thirteen gin bucks in that session every day, no more and no less, and then they'd go play golf. There was a drink stand at the 14th, I think, and Armour would stop there and have a couple more gin bucks. Depending on how he felt he would either play in or stop right there.

Then Dad would drive him home and his wife would cook him a nice dinner and he would go to bed---eg no more drinks.

Well, Dad and his buddies, including guys like Dick Wilson would go out, mostly down to what was called The Patio in Delray and really do some drinking.

The next day Dad might pick up Armour with a hangover and on the way to the golf course Dad said Armour would regularly launch into him with this admonition:

"Jimmy, how many times am I going to have to tell you that you aren't gonna win a battle against John Barleycorn?"

And Dad would say:

"But Tommy, look at what you........"

Ian, nobody I know today drinks anything like those guys did back then, not even close. Of course there were some lives cut short and ruined by it.

Could they be more creative because of it? That would be very hard to answer.  

If those guys back then were more creative or seemed to be than most today something tells me one reason was there just weren't so many people back then to tell them what they could or couldn't do, as there are today.

[Gary Daughters]

Ian,

I think it's that "other side" that's problematic.  There are plenty of successful alcoholics who manage to maintain that singular part of their lives. Maybe the alcohol fuels their narrow focus in some way.. or just allows them to hang on before it gets them altogether.  

The rest of their lives suffer.  Important things like wives, kids, friends.  I'd guess that most become narrow, insufferable bores or worse.  Start with Hemingway.  The list is long.

[Tim Copeland]

Most of the shapers I have worked with have been either alcoholics/stoners or Holy rollers...and they have been talented.

Got to get your inspiration from somewhere I guess

[TEPaul]

"Most of the shapers I have worked with have been either alcoholics/stoners or Holy rollers...and they have been talented.

Got to get your inspiration from somewhere I guess"

That just may be one of the most remarkable statements ever seen on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com, particularly considering that "shaping" is what we and all golfers actually see and play for the rest of time.

Ian, this thread or yours is a good one because of posts like this one. And, if someone feels like taking exception to it, well, so much the better, I guess.

[Tim Copeland]

if someone feels like taking exception to it, well, so much the better, I guess.

You guys can take exception to it if you want.....it is what I have experienced in the field.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

Undoubtedly there are a lot of guys in the construction end of the business who drink quite a bit.  Living on the road 365 days a year is not conducive to family life so many look for something else to fill the void.

One of the reasons I rely so much on my own associates for shaping work is that I can trust them to stay out of trouble.

In that GOLF DIGEST interview I did a year ago, I tried to say that, followed by the line that I might be the envy of the golf business because I'd never had to bail one of my shapers out of jail.  Somehow Guy misconstrued what I had said, and made it sound like I was worried about having to bail out my associates.  I'm just lucky he sent it to me to proofread before he put that in the magazine!

[Gary Daughters]

TEP..

Could it be that shaping can be as mindless an occupation as painting?  Several mornings a week I see painters loading up on 12-packs at my local convenience store.

[TEPaul]

"TEP..

Could it be that shaping can be as mindless an occupation as painting?"

Gary:

I guess it depends on what you mean by "painting"?

But just out of interest, have you ever REALLY WATCHED a shaper work?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Some of the shapers you've watched fall into a different category.  There are lots of guys who never get out of the dozer at all -- which, if Tim's characterization is correct, is probably a good thing so they don't fall off the tracks and hurt themselves.

[Tim Copeland]

A good number of these same guys have been worthy of watching from a distance as they carve something out of raw dirt.  Most had huge egos but the good outweighed the bad.  I do not get to actually work in the dirt that much as a Construction Super.....and I miss that.  When I do get the chances on the jobs....it is a blast

Tom,

It is a good thing that you are able to trust your guys and you know them so well.  Maybe I will get to that side some day......

[Tim Copeland]

Tom:

Some of the shapers you've watched fall into a different category.  There are lots of guys who never get out of the dozer at all -- which, if Tim's characterization is correct, is probably a good thing so they don't fall off the tracks and hurt themselves.

I will save those stories for later.....

[TEPaul]

Let me ask you guys something;

If an architect gives his shapers a plan of the way golf holes should be layed out and built, and also like where the bunkering should be placed et al, and the shapers do their own thing with the basic type and style of bunkering, let's just say they sort of "design" it up with their style, and then the architect comes back after a few weeks and approves it, who is it that really "designed" the look and style of the course?

[Gary Daughters]

Tom P:

Have not.  I've been on several courses under construction, but after the shaping had been completed.  I know there are shapers among us, and I'm probably not the only one who'd be interested to learn about their work.

I have a job that a lot of folks might consider interesting if not down right glamorous.  But the repetition and tedium of it sends me for a cocktail as soon as I get home.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

If the shapers deserve the credit, then you are going to have to rewrite pretty much the whole of golf architectural history, because Donald Ross and Alister MacKenzie and William Flynn were not around too much when their bunkers were built.  Some architects tried to draw them more precisely than others, but all relied on other people to carry out the work and make it look good.

It is a team effort, and it probably doesn't get properly attributed.  But, when the effort IS made to attribute some of that work, it's rarely done correctly, because everyone is politicking for their own place in history.  Remember all those stories about Dick Wilson having been responsible for Shinnecock?  That's the kind of crap you get when you start rewriting stuff that happened years ago.

[Tim Copeland]

Let me ask you guys something;

If an architect gives his shapers a plan of the way golf holes should be layed out and built, and also like where the bunkering should be placed et al, and the shapers do their own thing with the basic type and style of bunkering, let's just say they sort of "design" it up with their style, and then the architect comes back after a few weeks and approves it, who is it that really "designed" the look and style of the course?

I have never had that happen.....never

When the architect comes back there is always some change that he makes....whether it is to "mark his territory" or because the change needs to be made to make things fit because the shaper can not see it because he is too immersed in the work.  All of the architects I have worked with have been good guys so the changes have not been wide sweeping.  Sometimes he can not make huge changes because of the nature of the contract and project.

I did lay one out and we made the cuts and fills based on the architects plan and he came in for his site visit to look at two holes that we had shaped.........he got out of the truck and asked what he was looking at........we told him we had shaped it to plan and then showed the plan to him......he commented that one of his associates drew that plan and we were not to use it.  I wasnt too impressed with the guy as an architect.....but he was a good guy.....

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

I wonder how many architects on this site have ever done any of their work with a drink in hand. I find alcohol robs me of my ability to concentrate so there is very little I can accomplish well after a drink.

I won't drink with a client ever; it seems like such an easy way to leave a bad impression, for something so unnecessary.

[TEPaul]

"I have a job that a lot of folks might consider interesting if not down right glamorous.  But the repetition and tedium of it sends me for a cocktail as soon as I get home."

Gary:

That's funny. Truly.

You should take the time to watch some of these guys work. It really is fascinating. But it's hard to figure out with the best of them whether it's what they're actually accomplishing, or whether it's how they create so dexterously with that machinery what they have in mind.

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