[John Kavanaugh]

But who would want a cookie-cutter course?

I think my golfer described above would love it.

TH

Huck,

I think most golfers would love it, especially with on-site clubs and balls like found at a Putt Putt.  You could easily work out the geometry of the site where only five or six clubs are needed.  Given the advances we are seeing everyday in laser guided GPS grading technology these things will be built in one tenth the time of the current course...

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

Would you quit being so damned wishy-washy?  

You really see the downside of this being the long-term destruction of the game?  That's one hell of a downside.

Obviously I don't see it.  I still can't see why these courses couldn't be built along with more creative ones as well.  These give those with lesser means some fun golf, the rest cater to those with more means or more passion.  I don't see the harm.

Perhaps it's because I'm also assuming only one of these gets built per city... as a unique little niche.  Of course if these take over all development, it's not a good thing - although I believe the game would still survive.  

Do you really think of this in such armageddon terms?  Or are you just bothered because a yokel like me likes the idea? Come one, you can be honest.  I can take it.

Just be careful to remember your pledge.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

If I understand the McDonalds model correctly one of the most important aspects is not how good the food is it is that the food is exactly the same from town to town.  I'm talking about a strict adherance to this model.  We had a DQ family lose their franchise because they made a pizza burger that was better than the company Ultimate burger and they refused to stop selling it...Like I said, I think people would initially love the idea..it is 25 years down the road that worries me.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

OK. I wasn't thinking of this so much in terms of required adherence to standards so much as doing the best one could using a pre-determined plan.  

I still don't see the harm 25 years down the road though, assuming only one gets built per city.  Care to explain?

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Tom,
You missed my point. Substance before quantity. While the MickeyD's model may be a good business plan, it has done little in the realm of quality, knowledge and just simple good taste. We are now a nation of pigs.

Simply put, build an In And Out Golf Course, (Rustic Canyon) it's quality, natural and while it isn't always healthy, certainly it's better then having a McRib which is processed pig nutrified with God-knows who what they decided to put in there to make it taste-like an In and Out burger, or at leaqst compete with it taste wise.

This entire thread of John's has to have been inspired by the release of Fast Food nation in today's theaters. I know how John thinks.

All food-related threads eventually evolve into an In-and-Out Burger vs the world thing.  Way to go, Tommy!

[Tom_Doak]

I see the harm.  He's saying that once people get used to the template architecture of his McDonald's courses, they won't want to play golf on "quirky" courses, just their old standard favorite.

[Bill_McBride]

Huck,

If I understand the McDonalds model correctly one of the most important aspects is not how good the food is it is that the food is exactly the same from town to town.  I'm talking about a strict adherance to this model.  We had a DQ family lose their franchise because they made a pizza burger that was better than the company Ultimate burger and they refused to stop selling it...Like I said, I think people would initially love the idea..it is 25 years down the road that worries me.

I don't get this at all.

Isn't one of the greatest charms of golf the incredible variety, the range of experiences depending on designer, terrain, environment?  i.e.  seaside vs mountain vs the savannahs of Myrtle Beach?

How could it be a benefit to have a one-size fits all golf course that is the same in every city?  Won't that stifle the creativity we prize in our top gca's?

It reminds me of the complete loss of regionalism in restaurants.  A fast food restaurant in Shreveport is like the same one in San Diego or Boston.  That sucks.  

[Tim Copeland]

Already been done to death....the Alabama Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail

and he designed none of them

[cary lichtenstein]

Golf itself is a form of art, just as the architecture is.

[Eric Pevoto]

I'll have the Burgerville model, with fries, thank you.

[Gary Daughters]

Tom D:

Who says the template, assuming there is one,  can't be quirky?  Nothing like some hocus pocus to bring in new golfers.  I got hooked hitting my ball through a windmill, or into a hole where I got a free game when the clown's nose lit up.  I miss those days.

As far as the dreaded template, we have one already.  It's whatever it takes to put a new course on a magazine cover.  

What could be worse?

[John Kavanaugh]

Gary,

You have hit that nail on the head...golf architecture is getting so predictable that if each list from each magazine doesn't mirror each other one is seen as stupid and one smart...A Big Mac is a Whopper is Big Buford is a Classic..is a Nicklaus a Fazio a Doak or a C&C...We are on our way already.  

[Tom_Doak]

Gary:

I was using "quirky" to mean anything that fell outside the template of 18 holes which were exactly the same from one course to the next, no matter what kind of holes they were.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,

Can you remember a period of golf course architectural history where what is considered great looked more alike...Is this quickly becoming the least diverse period ever.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

Do you think Jim Engh's work looks like mine?
Mike Strantz's?
Tom Fazio's?

I think there's more variety out there than you think.  Maybe the people on this board have a narrow view of what great courses look like, but I'm not sure GOLF DIGEST does.

On the other hand, I would agree with you from the standpoint that nearly all new golf courses are overbuilt and overprettified and overirrigated, so that they are all big and wide and green, most of them with ruffled edges.

[John Kavanaugh]

Never seen a Jim Engh...I didn't think Tobacco Road looked all that different than Quail Crossing...Don't think Fazio of the last ten years is any different that Nicklaus and don't see much difference between Doak and C&C...I can tell the difference between a Big Buford, Big Mac and an Ultimate Burger...I prefer a Wendy's Double Classic with cheese and the one In and Out burger I had in Vegas was really special...Straight fries, curly fries and even sweet potato fries are great and the structure of an ice cube can improve a drink...It is not all the same yet but it is closer than it ever was.  Maybe it's not a bad thing because it seems that cars, buildings, plants, animals and people are all starting to look more alike than ever too...Maybe it's just me.

[Gary Daughters]

Tom,

Too late in this time zone to be splitting hairs, but going back to John's original post I'm not assuming a template, as you seem to be.  Who says it must be so?

The only template as such would be affordable golf.

Here in Atlanta the most affordable courses are the munis, among which are layouts by Wayne Stiles, H. Chandler Egan and George Cobb.  They're overrun.  We're lucky.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I would give a left Chicken McNugget to be inundated with H. Chandler Egan courses.

Huck, No, I don't think you do get it.

the question here is, "Has Tom Doak ever eaten at In-and-Out?" The next question after that is, "who would even care?"

Take it away John Kavanaugh!

P.S., Panhandle Bill,
It's hard not to want to "get" into an In-and-Out Double Double Protein Style! But it also proves how easy we can relate anything to Golf Architecture!

Go Irish!

[Dan Kelly]

Am I the only one who finds the term "In and Out burger" vaguely ... oh, I don't know ... repulsive?

[Eric Pevoto]

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.  She's a goer, no? (or something like that)

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm not sure that the McDonalds model is right for golf, but I'd certainly favor a "Stewart Sandwiches" model.  

Courses could be kept pristine and dry in some mummified freeze-dried state in a cellophane bag, right up until the time they were ready to be played.   They could be transported easily from one city to the next, depending on demand.  You wouldn't need just one template course, but could have variety on demand depending on the needs and tastes of the consumer, with perhaps one group favoring the Beefburger course, while another might be more inclined to face the challenge of the Chuckwagon course, or that one where the ham and cheeses seemed melded into a new element.  

Of course, each city would just need to have at least one very large special Stewarts Toaster Oven, so that when the customers started lining up in the pro shop, the course could be served deliciously fresh and piping hot in just a few scant minutes   That would be an ongoing capital expense to consider on the downside.

However, the pungent aroma of the fresh course cooking in the space-age cellophane material that somehow would neither burn nor melt would likely bring customers from far and wide, and would ultimately bring a big return on investment.

[Eric Pevoto]

Mike,

You've obviously gotten into some serious MBA-speak, with all that "variety on demand", "return on investment", "downside", and such.  

Nevertheless, I can smell the piping hot cellophane.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

You've obviously gotten into some serious MBA-speak, with all that "variety on demand", "return on investment", "downside", and such.  

Nevertheless, I can smell the piping hot cellophane.

Eric,

Dan Kelly and I will soon be going door to door among the GCA brethren looking for investment capital based on our "Mission Statement", tentatively titled the "Stewart Shakedown".

Early stakeholders will be entitled to all sorts of ludicrou..er...ah...lucrative perks, not the least of which will be major stock holdings in the actual Stewart Sandwiches franchise.  Of course, all of the yields will be non-refundable, but when you consider that we're likely single-handedly saving the future of the game, it's a pretty good deal.    

[ForkaB]

John is right, even if contrarily so.

A McDonald's of golf could succeed, and be good for the game.  Nicklaus has tried it with his "Bear's Best" but is was too upmakret to really take off.

As any parent will now, the attraction of McDonald's is not the grandeur of its food, but in the fact that you know it will be of reasonably high quality, it will be the same whether or not you are in Chicago or Catania, and the premises will be clean.  Those good old mom and pop places that Barney gets teary about were mostly rat-infested grease heavens.  One of the good ones was in Southern Cal and called, McDonald's........

Dan was and is right.

Let's be honest.  All new golf courses are formulaic--par 72, 7000-7500 yards from the tips, 4-3s, 14-4s, and 4-5s, 70-100 bunkers, twisty-twiny greens, lots of eye candy.  Coore's idea of eye candy isn't the same as Fazios, but's that about it for variety.  Sure, the land dictates a lot of the routing, etc. but strip them down to their basics and they are all just golf courses.  If architects and developers really had balls we'd see many more 9 and 12 and 22 and even 6 hole courses.  Unfortunately they are mostly sheep.

So, why not try to make a high percentage of new courses even  more predictable and more affordable?  None of us will go there (or will we.....?), but the game will be advanced.  IMO, at least.

Rich

[John Chilver-Stainer]

John K.

You’ve been beaten to it.

Not fast food golf but Super Market Golf, more or less the same idea.

 - Consumer orientated disposable golf off the shelf golf
 – predictable and cheap
– aimed fairly and squarely at the lesser income masses
-  in spite of providing  almost a “social” service,  profit orientated.

The Super Market Golf has an ambitious template:-

A Golfodrome with at least 100 Mats
A 6-Hole Practise Course for beginners
A 9-Hole Practise Course for players trying to achieve a handicap
An 18-Hole Course for Handicap Player
The usual Practise Greens etc.
A centre with Golf School Academy and Pro Shop.
A self service cantine/restaurant – however not a “junk food joint”

The  courses are kept in good condition with qualifed greenkeepers with state of the art equipment.

Where, you ask, is this happening?

Communist China? Red Russia? Libya? Some socialist land?

No – in the heart of capitalism – in Switzerland.

The “Migros”, a leading Super Market Chain, used and trusted by the honest hard working citizen, is as part of the culture here as cheese and chocolate. In the early 90’s the head of the Migros, a golfer, made an inspired but risky decision to provide “pay as you play” golf, marketing it on the strength of the Migros name, for a reasonable price.

There was a lot of scepticism at the time. Would the massive investment for unpredictable returns, meet their business plan?

The first project was an unprecedented success. Hundreds of good citizens tried there hand at golf on the driving ranges, attracted by the openness and uncomplicated style of the Supermarket culture, and were duly bitten by the bug and struck down by the golf virus. These new golfers then proceeded to climb the ladder to their golfing Nirvana - a handicap - using the facilities of the Migros Course.

The Migros had struck gold again.

Very quickly the Migros began looking for land for other projects around the large cities. In the meantime they have 6 of these monster projects, producing hundreds of new golfers in the country.

And the golf course architecture?

Well, also like a supermarket, well structured and predictable -  simple and easy to maintain, which means flat greens and bunkers, large landing areas and rough kept well away from the lines of play. The only redeeming factor is that the sites are different, with some hills and valleys

The courses have been designed by 3 different golf course architects. Very much “inside the box” designs with no intentions of falling anywhere near the outside of it.
 The courses provide a cheap round of golf but would never rise into the ratings of a top 10  for the quality of golf course architecture.

But that’s all there supposed to do. Non -pretentious low-cost golf of reasonable quality which makes a profit.

McDonald's could do the same in the right market environment.

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