PROPOSED 10,000-yard GOLF COURSE

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

According to a press release I received today, John Daly Enterprises is the designer of a course now being built at the Rolling Hills Casino Resort in California.

"The golf course ranges in length from 5,500 to 7,700 yards with way back tees that would allow it be be played to a ridculous 10,000 yards. If all goes well, the GF will open for play in the spring of '07."

[Aaron Katz]

I actually think this could actually be turned into a neat concept if done correctly:  What if they used the back tees on varying holes each day, so as to make the course modular.  Wouldn't it be cool to see if a designer could make, say, the 3rd hole in such a way that it could be a dynamite 195 yard Redan on Monday and a brute 465 yard par 4 on Tuesday?  Figuring out how tee placements, bunkering, etc. would work might be close to impossible (or maybe totally impossible), but it would be neat to give it a shot.

[cary lichtenstein]

Aaron:

That is a neat idea

Cary

[Bill_McBride]

I'm assuming that's a 27 hole course, right?  

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

                                          XVIII

[Bill_McBride]

Not XXVII?

[Glenn Spencer]

Shouldn't be too bad with the equipment of today. 4- 300-yard par 3's.-1200, 5 650 yard par 4's-3250, 5, 500 yard par 4's 2500 and 4 850 yard par fives. 3400.

[Neal_Meagher]

I toured this course while still under construction last summer but have waited to talk about it until they were ready which is obviously now.

The actual golf course architect of the Rolling Hills Casino is a former co-worker of mine Mike Stark of Eugene, Oregon.  In fact it is due to Mike's persistence that the course was even built as he went to the tribe himself with the proposal that they do a course on some of their land then followed through to completion this fall.  He is to be seriously commended for his stick-to-itivness.

The course is laid out over several hundred acres on casino (Native American tribe) land near Corning, California on the west side of I-5.  A mere smidge of the course can now be seen from the highway.  It is big and broad with nary a tree even to be seen and Mike has done a wonderful job fitting the greens to the site, much as he did on the much more constrained site at Mountain House, a recent thread here.

Mike and some of the other people involved in the project had the idea of creating 18 par 5 holes AS AN OPTION only to be used a few times a year for high stakes events.  When J.D. was there (for the first time) last month he apparently was happy with that concept which, when you think about it, is perfect for a course that he would have anything to do with.

When playing the course in the ordinary manner, it is a walkable course but when using the par 5 tees it is very much a cart ball track as most of those tees require severe backtracking.  In the case of the par 3's (I bet you were wondering how they would do that?) Mike has built little alternate fairways off to the sides short of some of the tees that act as fairways for the par 5 course.

Wind does blow out there and it can get wicked hot, so the fairways are bermuda and the greens are bent, but the scale is so big that there are plenty of ways to play the course in those conditions.  

I predict that this will be a popular stop-over for folks driving up and down I-5 from far northern California to points south and vice versa.  There are a couple of motels there now and it is all new and clean with a fair to middling casino to boot.  The course is not cookie-cutter as well, which should make it even more sought after to play.  I hope they certainly make at least a little noise about Mike Stark's involvement as he deserves it for all his efforts.  I hate it when the real designer don't get squat (well, I am from Mississippi, so I can talk that way when I want to ).

[Gary Slatter]

I hear the last hole is 5000 yards, long enough to land a plane.

[rjsimper]

Aaron -

On a 10,000 yard course, there wouldn't be any 195 yard par 3s on any day, assuming the course will not exceed a normal par (74 max).  Likewise, a 465 hole in such a layout would not nearly be considered a "brute" - it'd be the cupcake that you look forward to your sure-fire bogey.

My hope is that the 10,000 yard golf course goes the way of the par 6 - a novelty that has it's use and some will pay to see, but does not become adopted at any point in time as a standard presence in the golf lexicon.

[Mike Benham]

The course is laid out over several hundred acres on casino (Native American tribe) land near Corning, California on the west side of I-5.  

Google Aerial

[John_Conley]

Thanks for the insight Neal.  I wonder if this will be as great as Wicked Stick?

[RJ_Daley]

It should be universally cryit down.  This is pathetic.  How many more acres of FWs to mow and water.  Let alone thenotion playing into all the perverse tendancies of length that are ruining the game.  Neal, I'm surprised at you.

Normal people are still only going to be able to play it under 6800yards unless they get some sort of nanotech, plutonium B&I.  It is just wasting $ in the development and construction and maintenance that gets passed on to the player, that ups the going rates of all as conventional rates.  Use it for a bombing range for top gun.

[Aaron Katz]

Aaron -

On a 10,000 yard course, there wouldn't be any 195 yard par 3s on any day, assuming the course will not exceed a normal par (74 max).  Likewise, a 465 hole in such a layout would not nearly be considered a "brute" - it'd be the cupcake that you look forward to your sure-fire bogey.

My hope is that the 10,000 yard golf course goes the way of the par 6 - a novelty that has it's use and some will pay to see, but does not become adopted at any point in time as a standard presence in the golf lexicon.

Ryan,

I was actually implying that the course would be 10,000 if all the tees were moved all the way back, but that on any given day the superintendent would mix and match the tee placements (say, 5 way back, 5 way up, and 8 in between) so that the course would completely change on a daily basis (i.e. one day the 3rd hole is a par 3, the next day it's a par 4, etc.).

[PThomas]

maybe the fact that someone is actually building a course this preposterous will rouse the USGA into action to do something about the length the ball flies!

nah, it won't...unfortunately

[Paul Payne]

Aaron,

That is a very cool idea. I've never seen that done before.

I still think I'll fall back to my first impression, 10,000 yards just sounds miserable. I don't think I am interested.

[Brad Klein]

  4 par-3s @ 250 yards =   1,000
10 par-4s @ 500 yards =   5,000
  4 par-5s @ 700 yards =   2,800

total                        =             8,800

I'm still trying to figure out where they will get the additional 1,200 yards.

[John_Conley]

 4 par-3s @ 250 yards =   1,000
10 par-4s @ 500 yards =   5,000
  4 par-5s @ 700 yards =   2,800

total                        =             8,800

I'm still trying to figure out where they will get the additional 1,200 yards.

Brad:

Neal wrote this.

Mike and some of the other people involved in the project had the idea of creating 18 par 5 holes AS AN OPTION only to be used a few times a year for high stakes events.  When J.D. was there (for the first time) last month he apparently was happy with that concept which, when you think about it, is perfect for a course that he would have anything to do with.

When playing the course in the ordinary manner, it is a walkable course but when using the par 5 tees it is very much a cart ball track as most of those tees require severe backtracking.  In the case of the par 3's (I bet you were wondering how they would do that?) Mike has built little alternate fairways off to the sides short of some of the tees that act as fairways for the par 5 course.

556 is the magic number.  As long as the 18 holes average that you'll get to 10k.

[Matt_Cohn]

I wonder how golfers will feel about not "seeing the whole course". Golfers get frustrated if they have to play a temporary green even once in 18 holes, or if a back tee is closed. How will they feel about playing a bunch of holes that are moved up 200 or 400 yards from the back tees? Will they feel like they're not "seeing the whole course"? Will somebody spend 7 hours trying to play every hole as a par-5?

[Rick Shefchik]

It's all about the marketplace. I would think the Treehouse would be happy to see this idea thrown out there for the public to consider. If it fails -- or proves too expensive to maintain at 10,000 yards -- it becomes a powerful anti-length statement: longer is not necessarily better, and there's a limit to how much mileage a golfer is willing to put on his cart in any one round.

If it succeeds, well -- build more of 'em. I don't think we'll have to worry about the 6300-yard course vanishing.

[Neal_Meagher]

Woah, there pards,

Let's get this straight, the par 5 course (par 90) is only there if you are looking real hard for it.  Playing the course normally it is like any other course with the possible exception of the small alternate fairways used on the par 3's.  You might just wonder why that turf is over there???

It's MARKETING.  That's all.  This place is still relatively in the middle of nowhere and they just figured it would be a kick for a few special events a year to have a few guys with the cajones to go out and have at it.  Have some fun playing 18 par 5's.  Would be fun for some, not really me, but certainly for some.  

As for the extra turf, maintenance, the "message" it sends, etc. geesh, it's not really that much more turf and the whole thing is really low key with some carries involved from the regular tees.  From the par 5 tees it is really a long carry to get to green grass so its not like there is an exorbitantly extra amount of fairway to fertilize, mow, etc.  

So, Brad, your calculations don't approach the reality here because the extra 1,200 yards you wonder about come in the form of these extended carries for the par 5 course.  Think about it like a course overlaid on top of another course.  Now that is unique, plain and simple.  Don't attack this course or this concept til you've seen it.  I have seen it twice and it works.  It shouldn't be the model for future projects because that doesn't make sense for most sites or programs.  But it does make sense here - look at the space in that google aerial taken before the course was grassed.

I don't have any real reason to stick up for this course or this concept other than a friend of mine designed it.  You can all make your own decisions based on seeing it or playing it.  But you must admit that it will garner attention and that, I think, is the primary raison d’ętre.

[Greg Tallman]

Neal,

Thank you... I was getting aggravated that everyone seemed to miss the optional part of your post that I thought was stated rather clearly and laid out the concept (however strange) in an easily undertsandable manner.

Read the the topic and post away... damn the details from those in the know!

Thanks... I hope everyone reads your post this time. Cheers.

[RJ_Daley]

Please explain this Neal:  

Does the method of play or option to play all the holes as a par 5 have to be offered only on some quirky day, like the reverse old course on April fools day?  Do they think that folks can come to this course and mix and match what holes to play as a par 5, so that some folks can decide they'll play 8 par 5s today at 600-750, 4 par 3s of 250ish yards, and 8 par 4s at 490-550, or something like that.

I'd like to see how that course flows for rhythm.  Am I out of line imagining the 6-7 hour round and open warfare between 4somes?

Or, is it almost always going to be set up with about 4-5 sets of tees, from ladies distance up to 7100-7200 back tees?  Then, they will just maintain those ultra tees for the odd days when the whole course will be programmed to play like a marathon?  

Sorry, I am getting the idea that this is a mushroom induced concept.

[Neal_Meagher]

Dick Daley,

Mushroom induced probably not.  Miller lite, most probably.

And the likely scenario, as I understand it, is more like the second part of your post.  People will not have the option of mixing and matching par 5's willy nilly on any given day.  The par 90 course will be played on special days and only by individuals chosen by the tribe, although this could change of course.

Like I said, to all but the most aware, you won't even know that the way, way back tees are there so it will be set up traditionally with 3-4 sets of tees ranging from 5,000 something to 7,000 plus with a par of 72, I think, could be 71 but I'm pretty sure its 72.

Hope that helps explain it a bit more.

[RJ_Daley]

The par 90 course will be played on special days and only by individuals chosen by the tribe...

You mean like choosing to make all the Italians play the 90par on Columbus day, or only those with the surname of Custer, or some other manner of revenge?  Put'em out there with no water...