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John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2006, 10:29:53 AM »
I guess Tommy is still at the driving range.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2006, 08:44:00 PM »
Jeff, I think that beacuse of earth our moving equipment, modern architects can let their imaginations run wild.  If you can dream it you can build it.  I would say it frees up the imagination.  Just think of what was done at Whistling
Straights and Shadow Creek.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2006, 09:52:48 PM »
Is there any design area where any of you think modern designers do better than the golden age guys, as a general rule?

To start off, I would say:

Drainage and most technical aspects are far better.
Building courses on difficult sites.
Considering all levels of player
Control Personal Alcohol Consumption!

I have more, but don't want to influence the discussion too much!

I thought about this last night, and, unfortunately, the best answer I can come up with is - nothing.  The most lauded recent efforts are great, but I think it is because they emulate rather than improve upon what golden age architects did.

Of the Jeff's list, drainage and difficult sites are probably due to technology rather than better architecture.

I really disagree with the "considering all levels of player" item.  In my experience, very few of the golden age courses cannot be played by the beginner.  Many modern ones cannot.  

Controlling alcohol consumption I consider neutral at best.   :)


Jason,
With all due respect...are you serious???
Most of them could not even route a course on half the property we get today...much less get it built....
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Doug Ralston

Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2006, 10:01:49 PM »
Hey;

We Southern boys appreciate alcohol control. A tapped keg every 3 holes or so is about right!

Doug

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2006, 10:11:44 PM »
Jeff, I think that beacuse of earth our moving equipment, modern architects can let their imaginations run wild.  If you can dream it you can build it.  I would say it frees up the imagination.  Just think of what was done at Whistling
Straights and Shadow Creek.

Absolutely the best answer here and 100% correct!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2006, 10:51:22 PM »
I'm a modern course guy, and generally prefer the great new courses over the great old ones.  But some of that is due to the superior playing conditions that modern grasses provide.

I'd say the modern guys build more interesting greens.  That is a generalization, to be sure.  But classic greens tend to have less internal contouring and less variety, at least on the fine courses I have had the pleasure of playing in recent years.  

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2006, 12:30:19 AM »
Jason,
With all due respect...are you serious???
Most of them could not even route a course on half the property we get today...much less get it built....
Mike

No offense taken Mike.  I certainly can understand why modern designers would take offense at my viewpoint, but I stand by it.

In my experience, the golden age courses are more pleasant to walk, the greens are more interesting, and the use of natural terrain features results in more individuality in the way holes play.  While wonderful modern exceptions exist, such as Sand Hills, the resulting courses do not come close, on average, to what was produced during the 20's.  Compare the top 100 classic and the top 100 modern on the Golf Week list.  Which would you rather play?

It could entirely be due to better sites being available in that time period but I doubt it.  Technological advances should have offset any reduced quality of sites.

I think the economic and horsepower limitations in the era instead resulted in a better product as a whole.  Only within the last few years have some modern designers recognized that if you heed those limitations, the result can improve.  Even then, there is a tendency to avoid blindness, which to me should be a part of an interesting course.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 12:34:44 AM by Jason Topp »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2006, 10:03:50 AM »
I had an immediate response to this question and I can't believe no one has said it.

"Spend the client's money."

We may spend it on better drainage, or overcoming a tougher site, or using their imaginations, or private jet travel.  But we sure can spend it faster than Donald Ross ever DREAMED.

Oh, sorry, that was in Jeff's original question.  But it's still true, and he knows it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 10:04:55 AM by Tom_Doak »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2006, 10:36:12 AM »
Tom,

If I recall correctly, Maxwell built Southern Hills in 1936 for $100,000, and CBM built NGLA for $100K in about 1906.
 
I punched a 3% inflation factor into the calculator 70 and 90 times to figure inflation.  SH would have cost $770,000 today. NGLA would be about $1.4 Mil today.

However, neither had extensive irrigation which would add a million, and if we figure $250K for USGA greens and $500K each for drainage, cart paths and environmental controls, its reasonable to assume an apples to apples comparison would be $4.25 Million for course construction today at NGLA and perhaps $3.5M for Southern Hills.  While my math may be off a bit, those construction costs don't seem to be that out of line.  

What did construction at Sebonic Cost? Or more importantly, when you consider that CBM worked for free, how much more was the total design fee? :)  I think the real cost additions have been in signature fees for high end designers!;)  To paraphrase someone, "Its true, and you know it." :o

Maxwell included his fee in the Southern Hills cost (taking what was left as incentive for cost control) Even if Maxwell netted 7% of that 100K, it would tranlate to only $56K in design and construction management fees.

Of course, outside development costs, like land acquistion on Long Island, etc. etc. etc. have also contributed.

I understand what you are saying, but I am not sure we necessarily, with the exception of a few, go nuts on spending money.  Certainly, the whole business of getting competitive bids, and estimating quantities, etc. has matured from the old days, even if that wasn't really what I had in mind posting this.

And, for those who want to spend like a drunken sailor, I wonder if the old guys wouldn't have done that just as well.  Frankly, I always thought Ross frugal Scot personality held him back as a designer.  Given Mac was also Scottish, but had more flare, maybe we can't blame it on ancestry completely.  Its just true then and now that sometimes, a great design requires more work and money and designing soley to minimize costs can hold you back.

As Sean says, the question is probably too broad.  However, since 99% of the debates here use one example to make a broad point, why shouldn't I be able to? ;)


« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 10:37:52 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2006, 10:58:07 AM »
Tom,

  Frankly, I always thought Ross frugal Scot personality held him back as a designer.  Given Mac was also Scottish, but had more flare, maybe we can't blame it on ancestry completely.




Jeff,

MacKenzie was English.

Bob

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2006, 11:03:25 AM »
Tom,

  Frankly, I always thought Ross frugal Scot personality held him back as a designer.  Given Mac was also Scottish, but had more flare, maybe we can't blame it on ancestry completely.




Jeff,

MacKenzie was English.

Bob

Bob

We have been through this before!  Mac's father was a Scot.  As far as I know so was his mother, though I still haven't had this confirmed.  It doesn't matter if Mac was born in England.  If his parents are Scots he is a Scot.  We need the drunken drummer to speak up if he can.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Glenn Spencer

Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2006, 11:08:19 AM »
I am a huge dead-guy fan, but I think that most modern courses and architects are up against it to begin with. There are so many modern courses that I would rather play today than I would Merion in 1916, if anything parallels wine, it is golf courses. The modern courses need time to let things happen and the greens to settle in and the look and the feel of the place to settle in. 100 years from now, the list could look a lot different.  1950's until the 1980's were a bust and there is not much that can be done about it. The courses that are being built today need time and a different thiniking to overcome some of the dead guys at the top. Also, don't today's guys have a lot more restrictions to work around. So, I guess that is my answer, restrictions.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2006, 11:08:45 AM »
Bob,

Either way, I did say that we can't blame it on ancestry.  Ross was simply frugal by most accounts.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kyle Harris

Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2006, 12:31:00 PM »
Designing courses based around modern irrigation and the needs/limitations of an automatic irrigation system.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2006, 09:16:50 PM »
Y'all don't get it.....re read my first post.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Ian Andrew

Re:What do modern guys do better?
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2006, 11:21:03 PM »
Jeff,

I'm actually quite diappointed with many answers on this thread. So I'll throw out a bunch of eamples for thought.

I think there is more time spent dealing with the construction details and making sure things are built to last. Not just the drainage, but the inventive use of products and solutions to deal with untenable situations. Even the understanding of soild, irrigation, turf etc. has improved in leaps and bounds.

The enviornment is dealt with completely different now with buffer areas, water collection systems, runoff control, naturalization programs, preservation schemes and the like. The science can be staggering at times, and it's part of the job.

Then look at the reclaimation efforts which start with land fill, and extend to quarries and pits. Not only do they become golf courses, but often extend on to be completely regenerated natural ecosystems.

Building where it was once impossible, from desert golf to breaking down pumice to create soil to golf in ever more extreme locations.

Even restoration is a modern idea, since many of the Golden Age guys plowed under a lot of work by their (now revered) peers. I don';t recall any of them making efforts to preserve any architects body of work.

So to those who say nothing...............
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 11:21:46 PM by Ian Andrew »

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