A Positive discussion on the European Club

[SPDB]

Hello SPDB (or whatever)
To answer your question ref visibility of bunker at front of green 3.
Look at the first picture at Post 7 above and you will see the view of the green and the bunker from up the fairway.
We are heavy on visibility at The European Club .... including having a look at those white knuckles on the club (and mentally) as guys wonder have they got what it takes.
All golf isn't played on grass.

Pat - I looked at the picture you reference, and the bunker I'm talking about is not visible (or at best, barely visible). It seems like it might be a form of HaHa.
Like I said, I love it from the looks of it.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Darren I agree with you on how wide is wide depends greatly on the prevailing wind direction and strength of it, the green complex as well as other features on the hole such as fairway bunkers etc. I think one of the reasons Doak, C&C as well as the other professionals who design this way are well recieved on the forum is they do get angles and strategy so well.

[Jason Topp]

I'm glad this discussion has focused on width, where Mr. Ruddy's comments run counter to a precept generally accepted by most that comment on this board.  I also would love to hear him weigh in on the "Case Against Fast and Firm" discussion that is taking place seperately because it runs counter to the quotes I inartfully cut and pasted below.

It is nice to get a fresh perspective on these issues.

From "Ruddy Counter Attacks":

Just one thing, the Fast and Firm issue has been mentioned.  We can go fast and firm as much as you like in just three days any Summer if we so choose .... then the complaints set in to the effect that it is unfair that the ball bounces into such deep bunkers, such deep rough and "perfect approaches" get punished.  It is impossible to please'm all all the time .... so I tend to please myself (which is a bit of an indulgence, but then I will live only once and I had better get on with it) knowing that many other people will share my taste for shots off grass rather than off bare sand.
It is not long ago that Horace Hutchinson advised the golfer with a naughty putter to get down on his hunkers "keeping the ball between you and the hole and select a particular daisy over which to putt!" try that daisy covered green, a great aid to putting, at your club and see how old ideas will be embraced, even the ideas of one of the greatest champions of them all.
It is not long ago, either, (maybe 40 years) since I lost a ball in mid-fairway at Portmarnock as the 2" canopy formed by a perfect carpet of daisies provided perfect camouflage.



From this thread:

(d) Conditioning.  Ireland suffered a major drought in 1995 and all links were set-back severely. We installed fairway irrigation after that and have chosen to stay green. We have a policy of keeping short and fast to the extent that visitors even from finer clubs worldwide have praised what they find in terms "your fairways are as good as/better than our greens at home." Of course, if we wish, we can go as brown as one might wish in three days at anytime March-November.  Meantime, it is nice to avoid the worst traumas of deep divot holes, which will not grow back in drought conditions, and weeds which thrive when grasses are stressed.

[Pat Ruddy]

Mr Kilfara
Your treatise on the strategy of the 18th at St. Andrews baffles me.
Drive, almost anywhere, and a short iron.
That's it.
No fast and firm, no need to aim, no nothing, just down the stick with a short iron.
For those who can't hit a teeball it gets more complex perhaps .... but then life is always tricky for the inept.  And the wildly inept might, I agree with you, get into spots on natural terain where they could injure themselves .... which is much better than injuring others with their wild shots.  Thankfully, most people play GOLF and leave FLOG ot the few.

[Ally Mcintosh]

pat,

i'm not so sure about that... there are plenty of choices... what distance you want to play your approach in from? is the green receptive enough to take a 100 yard wedge to a pin position 6 feet over the valley of sin... or hit your drive so long down the left to the first tee that you take the valley out of play... don't fancy a little bump and run to the same pin position from 50 yards through the valley - too much room for error...

...similiarly, hit your drive tight down the right and flirt with out of bounds and you can also take the valley out of play or at least give yourself an easier approach... it is certain that the safe drive (aimed to split the 1st and 18th) gives you the most difficult approach... pin positions of course play a part in this...

i may be being too simplistic? i am coming from a low handicapper's point of view and not a working architect's... however, now the question has arisen, i'd be very keen to hear peoples views... thanks

(i realise this is wildly off topic)

[Brian Phillips]

Ally,

I think you have summed up the 18th perfectly.

Pat,

Darren is a fine golf player and certainly does not FLOG the ball.  He lived in St. Andrews for a good while and has played the Old course I don't know how many times.

I always listen to Darren because he has a very good perception of how a golf hole can or cannot be played.

I certainly do not agree with you that it is always a short iron into the 18th green at The Old Course.  I have hit eveything from putter to 4 iron and that is the beauty of the hole....a truly fantastice finishing hole and similar to the 18th of North Berwick.

Brian

[Pat Ruddy]

Ally
All very fine.
But if it is to be a 100-yard wedge to any flag what are the options?
What angle of descent will a 100-yard wedge follow?
Where is it going to bounce to having come in so steep .... no matter how hard the green?
How great is the expected dispersion with a 100-yard wedge by a player who can hit a wedge that far?
Watch the better players at the 16th at Augusta ...where they use more than wedge .... and you could saw-off three-quarters of the green and throw it away because it is not in play except by a few.
Don't get me wrong, I love St. Andrews and enjoy that hole .... but it is one of the weakest in championship golf and  if you built 18 like it we would have 54s regularly.   The same goes for holes 9 and 10 and to a lesser degree hole 1.  
Sorry if I shock you!

Brian,
If it is a 4-iron it is into the wind (or you have had a bad drive).  So it isn't going anywhere fast when it lands?
The bad golfer, or the good fellow by choice, can run it ..... but this is true of any links most of the time as most have left a majority of their green fronts receptive to that approach and I like it a lot more as I get older and find that 180-yards in the air and 40-yards on the ground keeps me with the young turks who like the aerial route best.
I feel that it is possible to philosophise too much over a flat bit of tightly mown grass....no matter how long you live near it and look at it.

We can agree to differ, of course.


 
 

[Ally Mcintosh]

pat,

i think it's the valley that gives 18 its bite and its strategy (of which i think there's plenty)... 9 is not the best hole agreed but there is a bunker 60 yards short on the right that seems to be very appealing to a 3-wood off the tee and the gorse tight by the green on the left likes the long drivers... 10 has a few more options, doesn't it? bunkering is good and the left side is also tight... i'm not an expert on st andrews by any means - i have only played it a handful of times and the last time i managed to cover 9 & 10 in an aggregate of four strokes *puffs chest out with pride   * so i may have missed some of the strategic options... the first hole to me has less options than 18... i don't dislike it though...

also, not to do with the actual hole... but the feeling of playing directly into the town on 18 is one to cherish...

...on topic, i must make it down to the european next summer... i will tip my hat if i see you around

[Darren_Kilfara]

Pat, I have to say, I'm a bit worried about the state of golf course architecture if you're one of its leading practitioners and can't see beyond the class of golfers for whom the 18th at the Old Course is always a drive and a wedge! This lends credence to my initial sense that the European Club is indeed a "black diamond" course designed with the scratch golfer first and foremost in mind. A truly great course needs to at least consider the needs of the 24-handicapper as well as the scratch golfer, doesn't it? I'm borderline horrified to hear you talk this way, as though "strategy" is only something for good players to consider on a golf course.

And for that matter, if you think the 18th at TOC is always a drive and a wedge for good players, you should perhaps talk to the class of golfer that can hope to drive the green, or get within pitching/bump-and-run distance and therefore needs to factor the angles of the Valley of Sin into the equation relative to where the hole location is on any given day - the shot is much easier if you're pitching straight up the bank instead of across it. In theory, the 100-yard wedge may be more likely to produce better results than a 40-yard pitch (for most golfers, anyway, but not all)...but then, it's golfers reaching for a 10-yard chip or an eagle putt who tend to wind up with the 40-yard pitch, which is precisely why a hole like this can be so fascinating EVEN WHEN IT'S "EASY".

(As an aside, I wonder if Granny Clark's Wynd could even be considered party of the strategic puzzle that is the 18th at TOC. Although I'm a low-handicapper, I've never been a terribly long hitter, and having played the course 30+ times I certainly had days at TOC when the one thing I feared the most at the 18th was hitting my drive and having it stop on the road, thereby complicating my approach. That actually happened during the one time I broke par at TOC - the event is more fully described in my book - and I wonder if there's something about the road being a hazard which shorter hitters should consider!)

Cheers,
Darren

[Ken Kearney]

Hi,

I am guilty of not keeping abreast of the "action" on GCA. Glad to see some Irish going on here.
Just to say that TEC is wonderful but I think some of you may miss the humour in our friend Mr.Ruddy...He has created and is always creating at TEC and it is a testament to his great knowledge and love for the game...and not a little scared to be different...

Slan..

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Ken, I think different in golf architecture is a good thing.

[Pat Ruddy]

Mr Kilfara
You go down and dirty with this last posting of yours....
"Pat, I have to say, I'm a bit worried about the state of golf course architecture if you're one of its leading practitioners and can't see beyond the class of golfers for whom the 18th at the Old Course is always a drive and a wedge! This lends credence to my initial sense that the European Club is indeed a "black diamond" course designed with the scratch golfer first and foremost in mind. A truly great course needs to at least consider the needs of the 24-handicapper as well as the scratch golfer, doesn't it? I'm borderline horrified to hear you talk this way, as though "strategy" is only something for good players to consider on a golf course".

Just to let you know:
(a) We have all got the message that you are a LOW HANDICAP guy;
(b) We have all got the message that you have written a BOOK.

What isn't clear is whether you are able to read and think clearly.
Read what I wrote and see did I really say that the 18th at St. Andrews is always a drive and a wedge?
No.   I did not.
I merely picked-up on your comment concerning a 100-yard wedge approach.

However, no matter how your imagination runs riot the 18th at St Andrews remains a very short hole, a very flat hole and if it were anywhere else a very basic hole.  

Your remarks on my design abilities and the layout of The European Club are insulting in the extreme and I think that you should consider them.  
I have designed 37 golf courses and all are a success with all standards of golfers.... except, perhaps, a few knowalls ... and I do keep all golfers in mind.
If I didn't do so I would be very hungry and poor.  As it is, I am neither.
I would suggest you try talking to me when you have written a few more books, designed a few golf courses and developed more wit.

Also, if The European Club is that terrible in your eyes why don't you find something of interest and merit to think about.  There are only about 30,000 other courses out there.

Warmest regards
Pat Ruddy

[Dave_Miller]

The European Club has been debated a bit on GCA in recent weeks and this posting is an effort to ensure that the followers of various threads who happen on this thread will benefit from up-to-date information.

How many inhabitants of GCA have visited us?  When were they last here?
Anyone thinking of coming should note that access is not a problem either in terms of getting here or in terms of being made welcome.  If one is at home a cup of tea and a scone is on the cards.
 

To the Treehouse:

Was at the European Club with the Charles River group last month.  Wonderful golf course.  We were made to feel right at home by Pat Ruddy and treated great.  
The golfing experience was just outstanding.
Mr. Ruddy also designed Druid Heath and Druid Glen just North of there and about 25 miles south of Dubling.  They are also outstanding courses.
Best
Dave

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Dave, now that is the sort of post Pat likes. The fact that it is from the heart makes it even better.

[Pat Ruddy]

Tiger, Tiger, TIGER!
Down boy!
Pat

[Brian Phillips]

Anyone who has not visited The European should read Jim Finegan's chapter on the course in his latest book 'Where Golf is Great'.

He really does get the feel not only of the course but also the passion and effort Pat has put into he life dream.

Jim even takes the mickey in the last paragraph!

Brian

[ed_getka]

Mr Ruddy,
   I have not seen any of your work, but I am curious how your evolution of design has come about. Do you make it a habit to look at other courses that are considered great, in order to figure out what makes them tick? Or is it that as you have built successive courses you have changed your mind about certain aspects of what you do? How many AHA! moments have you had at TEC, where suddenly you found something that vastly improved a hole?
   I don't know what your approach to design is, but I must say from what I've read here that I sort of get the same feeling as Darren. Keep in mind that it is always difficult to ascertain the "tone" of words when you have not met a person. You may very well design for all classes of golfer. I won't know until I see your work for myself.
    Thank you for coming on the site and expressing your views. I am always happy to hear other's views and learn from them.
   

[Pat Ruddy]

Hello Mr Getka
Before talking design I would like to clarify one thing .... you and others refer to the tone of my early postings on GCA.  I would ask you to read what others have written about me and place yourself in my position. Would you then feel that some extreme language was being used to condemn you and your work? So, my early postings were designed to try and correct this and, of course, one has to go some way along the road of fighting fire with fire.
Evolution?   The greatest evolution in recent times has been in the game itself.  That is clearly recognised by all.  
That said, it seems to me that a golf course has to reconsider itself at intervals merely to keep pace with the evolving game.
Evolution?  Does a person evolve intellectually?  I think so.  Besides, wouldn't it be dull if any artist insisted on painting the same images everytime he/she visited canvass?   I think if is not just valid but very important for any artist/writer/academic/philosopher (what you will) to continue to seek new meanings and shapes in life and (in my case) in golf.
Playability?   You say that you have not played my links but, judging by my writings here, you tend to agree with another who was very condemning of The European Club.  
I would like to say here  that we are one of the busiest golf courses in Britain & Ireland and our visitors are not all single figure golfers or, after the round, suicide cases.  Sure, some people play badly .... but some people miss 2-foot putts as well!  Happily, several times a week we receive letters of thanks from very good golfers for affording them a fine game and the best hospitality I and my family can muster.
Details?  I prefer not to dissect my links.  Had a scratchman the other day write to me asking to explain in advance of his visit how he should play each hole.  Like asking a magician for a booklet containing all the answers as one entered the theatre!, was my response.  He was happy with that answer.  It has taken me 35-years in the field to develope the questions and it is fun watching people seeking the answers (plural).
I hope you do visit some day, have a  nice game, and go away feeling that you have not wasted a day in your life.  Whether you think the links is great or otherwise will be up to yourself and that won't bother me providing you don't become a linguistic extremist on the internet.

[Andrew Mitchell]

The European Club has been debated a bit on GCA in recent weeks and this posting is an effort to ensure that the followers of various threads who happen on this thread will benefit from up-to-date information.

How many inhabitants of GCA have visited us?  When were they last here?
Anyone thinking of coming should note that access is not a problem either in terms of getting here or in terms of being made welcome.  If one is at home a cup of tea and a scone is on the cards.
 

Pat & others

I was at the European Club in March 2003, combined a round there with a weekend in Dublin to watch England RU win the grand slam - not much chance of the latter happening again any time soon .

I too thought it was a wonderful golf course.  There were some tough holes but I did not feel overwhelmed or beaten up by the course.  I thought the 18th was a dissappointing finish as the pond in front of the green seemed artificial and out of keeping with the rest of the course. Having said that it would certainly not put me off playing there again on a future trip to Dublin.

[ed_getka]

Mr. Ruddy,
    I am not agreeing with anyone's condemnation of TEC. I was pointing out that you seem to focus on how stern a test your course provides. Every architect has bias in how they design courses, whether it be length, forced carries, penal features, demanding greens and surrounds, use of water, etc... There is nothing wrong with that to me. I know that my bias is to favor courses with really interesting and demanding greens and surrounds, and no or little water. I dislike water because I can't play a golf shot from it and hitting shots is why I play golf in the first place. As a 12 handicap?, my greatest weakness is off the tee, and my strength (at least in my mind) is my short game. Thus my bias.
   One of the great things about this site is that I now know people who know what I like and I know their preferences, so we are able to help each other find courses of interest.
   Most architects will say they design their courses for every class of golfer, but often that is simply not the case. I am not saying you do this, because I haven't even seen your work. All I am saying is that we all have biases, and yours seems to be an emphasis on championship level golf. I could be completely wrong, but that is the sense I get from what I have read here.
   Most of the guys here seem to like what you have done at TEC, and I don't know of any higher compliment than that.
    I wish you continued success in your endeavors.

[Tommy Williamsen]

One of the keys to TEC,as with most courses, is to play the correct tees.  I have played the course with all levels of players and the ones who have the most trouble are the players who think they are better than they actually are and playe the wrong tees. Higher handicap players have a ball from tees they can handle.  Actually off the tee there is room for error.  I found it wider than St. Enodoc or Portush, or Royal County Down.

[Pat Ruddy]

Hello again Mr Getka
Your latest posting throws some light on our debate.
You are looking at life as a 12-handicap.
I have been talking about life off the tips at The European Club in the context of a debate on modern, major golf courses......and the tips certainly would not be a good place for a 12-handicap or an 8-handicap or even a 5-handicap (or even some of the scratchmen who never break 80 in amateur championship fare .... we have lots of them in this country and presumably we don't have a lock hold on the world supply of those chaps) on any course that purports to be of modern championship calibre.
Mr. Williamson hits the nail on the head (see posting before this one).  Play the tees that suit and you will do well. On our Welcome Card we advise guests to choose their tees wisely and, if they don't, not to go away saying they were murdered .... rather, they have just committed golfing suicide!
Obviously, when you take the various tees into consideration any golf course becomes a many splendoured thing.  The possible permutations become virtually endless and that, along with fluctuating form and mood within the player, is what creates the big mystery!
I am just a little shocked that anyone would consider that any designer would be one-dimensional ... but I forgive you!
If ever you visit and I am at home we will share a pot of tea and some apple pie!

Mr. Mitchell.
Thank you for that.  Good news is that design evolution has overtaken the pond on 18 and I hope you might enjoy the squirming burn which now resides there!

[ed_getka]

On our Welcome Card we advise guests to choose their tees wisely and, if they don't, not to go away saying they were murdered .... rather, they have just committed golfing suicide!

Tommy W,
    Good point.

Mr Ruddy,
    I love the above quote. Good for you.
    The flip side of a golfer getting in over their head, is the all too common case of what I see over here where golfers will get on tees that are too easy, just so they can shoot a low score.
     I look forward to the apple pie.

[Kirk Gill]

This lends credence to my initial sense that the European Club is indeed a "black diamond" course designed with the scratch golfer first and foremost in mind. A truly great course needs to at least consider the needs of the 24-handicapper as well as the scratch golfer, doesn't it? I'm borderline horrified to hear you talk this way, as though "strategy" is only something for good players to consider on a golf course.

What would George Crump have said on this issue?

[Andrew Mitchell]

Mr. Mitchell.
Thank you for that.  Good news is that design evolution has overtaken the pond on 18 and I hope you might enjoy the squirming burn which now resides there!

That's interesting news Pat.  What brought about that change at the 18th?  Did you get a lot of negative feedback about the pond or was it just you wanting to tinker with your baby and/or letting the course evolve?

Ponds on links courses have always appeared an artificial element to me whereas burns are a usual feature feeding water into the sea and are found on many excellent courses (TOC, Carnoustie, Turnberry, Dunbar etc).