A Positive discussion on the European Club

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat's last post brought forth an important point, the evolution of a course. The course has changed since I was there in 1999. It is very clear this significant course south of Dublin should be looked at again.

[Chris Burgard]

Hi Tiger,

I was going to request this on the OTHER thread, but since you started this one...

Mr. Ruddy,

The best education that most of us on the site can get is when an architect explains reasons for doing or not doing certain things in their design.

I know that you have described the lengthening of the European Club as well as the addition of bunkers but I would love to hear more about your course...the choices you made...and what other alterations that you have made?

What inherent restrictions did the site present and what would you have done differently if you could have?

Photos would be helpful for those of us who haven't been there.

Also why "The European Club", is there a story behind the name.

Thanks,
Chris

ps. I am planning on visiting your designs at The Club de Golf D'Ile de Montreal next time I am near there.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Pat's last post brought forth an important point, the evolution of a course. The course has changed since I was there in 1999. It is very clear this significant course south of Dublin should be looked at again.

Tiger,

Just curious, from what you remember of the things that you did not like, has Pat made those changes?

This is an interesting thread. Perhaps it would have been valuable to Pat back in 1999, thus I hope the process of GCA.com remains the same, with maybe better timing.

I absolutely loved Kelly Moran's Lederach GC on my one an only play, which happened to be with him. I told Kelly then, and I will say it again, I think he should blow up the one hole (#12?). Kelly was crystal clear that is was going to take more than one wannabe rater to change the hole!! Actually, I thought his process had logic: give it a few years and then lets talk. I will bet that hole will be changed in 2013. I would also guess that some greens would be softened too due to public play opinion, but I would hope they and each of the other 17 holes stay the same.

Hopefully Kelly will reappear on GCA before 2013.

[Tommy Williamsen]

One of the strengths of the course are the par threes.  Counting the "extra" holes there are six.  Two stand out.  Number two although shortish (seems to me 150 Yards or so) is played uphill to a tricky green. It will repell shots that are not hit to the right location.  If you hit the green two putts are not a given.
The fourteenth is longer and is hit to a plateau green.  The green is generous but hit it right or left and up and down are no bargain.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I need to talk about 18.  It is probably the most controversial hole on the course.  I have played the course almost a dozen times and have only played it well a few times.  It began with a small pond fronting the green.  Pat took a lot of grief about the hole and has replaced it with a little burn.  It did not soften the hole but did give it some more character.  
The hole is long and if the drive is not well hit the second shot is blind and ;ong and a lay-up is necessary.  Hitting the green, even from 150 yards is not a bargain either as the green cants and is not all that big.  It is a stern finish, but it follows a wonderful par four where three is a distinct possibility.  It seems to me that the 17th green has been enlarged.  I think my favorite hole is three.  But then again I did hole out my second shot.

[Dan Moore]

Tommy,

I'm with you on #3.  Not only is it beautiful running as it does downhill with the sea in the background, but a wonderful green site with some extremely well placed bunkers.  My second found the bunker front left.  Congrats on the double eagle.  

This is a tough course, but a very fine test of golf. Carnoustie with views??  The love will come with time.  

[Pat Ruddy]

The European Club has been debated a bit on GCA in recent weeks and this posting is an effort to ensure that the followers of various threads who happen on this thread will benefit from up-to-date information.

How many inhabitants of GCA have visited us?  When were they last here?
Anyone thinking of coming should note that access is not a problem either in terms of getting here or in terms of being made welcome.  If one is at home a cup of tea and a scone is on the cards.

Access-
 How many know that there is now a motorway almost the full length of Ireland’s east coast, by-passing Dublin, from Belfast to Rosslare and that we are now just 1.5 hours from Portmarnock and 3-hours from Royal County Down at all but rush hour time. So, it has never been easier to play  RCD, Baltray, The Island, Portmarnock (old),  Royal Dublin, Portmarnock Links (new), Druids Glen, The K-Club and The European Club.

Rankings -
We do not believe that any ranking is sacrosanct or fully correct. But we take heart when ALL rankings give us favourable mention and we see this as an indication that we are getting some things right.
Most recent rankings bestowed on us are:  91st in the World (Golf magazine 2005, up form 98th in 2003); 2nd in Ireland (Golf Digest Ireland 2006); 15th in Britain & Ireland (Golf Monthly UK 2006).
 Despite this, some people will enjoy our links and others will dislike it.  That’s just the way it is with design.  But we are sure that nobody will be indifferent!

Evolution of a links -
Here is some of how we have been working through the years to make our links excellent in design and presentation:-
I like to think of a golf links somewhat as a grand piano (links tend to be bigger and more robust and versatile than parkland) capable of yielding a lot of magical tunes limited only by the imagination and the skill of those who care for them and of those who care to play them in a humble but adventurous spirit.
In this respect we have sought to keep abreast of the evolution of the game and my own evolution as a practitioner of course design.  Both have been rapid and demanding.
Here are just some of the things we have been doing over the years ---
(i) The game of golf has changed a lot since we opened with a links measuring 6,792-yards at Christmas 1992.  Our championship tees, we hosted the Irish Men's Amateur (and the ladies' also) this year, have now slipped back to 7,355-yards with some consequential revisions of the medal and forward tees.  Our ability to strike a hugely wider variety of links set-ups has exploded accordingly.
(ii) My own knowledge and taste continue to evolve and will do so onwards .... so, there have been and will be what I view as improvements always onwards and in this respect it is rewarding to stay with the task over so many years and have the required freedoms.   I feel that this constant worrying and working is an absolute MUST with any golf course aspiring to be excellent ....
(b) Hazard strategy has been reviewed.  Take bunkering where we started-out with just 60 carefully placed pits.  As the game changed this had to change.  It would not do just to move these 60 about, leaving the spaces they had occupied empty, so we have added 41 more.  Consideration has been given to have these function in all respects for as many golfers as possible, playing off varied tees in varied weathers.  Not too easy...as all golfers are so different but one must have a treat and a tease for all!
Of course, we have then gone with our railway tie look to be able to show the locations of the hazards (which have to be sunken on a links in order to stop them from blowing away), to add bold definition and gain some intimidation factor.
(c) The much criticised pond on fairway 18 is gone. The purists would not accept water on a links even though the first such in golf was on the first fairway at St. Andrews.
It took years to figure how an Irishman could hold his water against this criticism and I thank Jean van de Velde and Carnoustie for the solution .... our pond has been transformed into a meandering burn retaining the hazard factor (indeed, enhancing it) while making previous critics happy ... it isn't the water that bothered them as much as the shape of it!
(d) Conditioning.  Ireland suffered a major drought in 1995 and all links were set-back severely. We installed fairway irrigation after that and have chosen to stay green. We have a policy of keeping short and fast to the extent that visitors even from finer clubs worldwide have praised what they find in terms "your fairways are as good as/better than our greens at home." Of course, if we wish, we can go as brown as one might wish in three days at anytime March-November.  Meantime, it is nice to avoid the worst traumas of deep divot holes, which will not grow back in drought conditions, and weeds which thrive when grasses are stressed.
(e) There have been nuanced changes to greens, shaping changes to fairways and so on.   

[Aidan Bradley]

A quick note from the road. I am in Portugal on assignment and presently waiting for the clouds to part to allow a few slivers of sunshine to illuminate this wonderful new course. I happened to log on to GCA and noticed that a new thread on TEC has started.

For those who may not have seen the original thread  I wanted to share my enthusiam for this course. I have had the privilage over the years to photograph many links courses and TEC ranks with the best of them. For those who have seen these images before(forgive me) but I just wanted to share my view that not only is TEC a great test of golf but equally inportantly, a great walk in the park. Thank you.

Aidan.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Trying to stay positive but adding depth to GCA.com............don't get mad Pat!

The look of TEC is similar in spots to Enniscrone, however, it appears to have more detailing around the greens. Stealing from Aiden's website, here is a picture of Enniscrone's 16th which runs along the ocean.



To me this hole looks narrow in the picture, and in fact it plays narrow, especially in the wind.

TEC, from pictures only and this is a discussion group so take it easy , looks narrow in spots, like Enniscrone (so I am first picking on a course that I belong to before taking a cheap shot at another club   ). It is well rated by Digest which makes me think it is a tough test, making me again think that it may be narrow in the wind for the club golfer (me). Is this accurate or inaccurate?

[Pat Ruddy]

No need to tip-toe, Mike, I'm not crazy!
Flattered to be compared to your club.
Same broad breed of dog and dogs of a breed will have similarities, but differences too.
Tight versus wide?  
How wide does golf need to be?  Indeed, when is wide golf heading into non-golf or batter-ball country?  
Big questions.
Had a famous American around last year who got angry at missing fairways until he was asked what was wrong with the tame semi-rough which allowed a perfectly good shot towards the green.  PING! The penny dropped ... golf grass is good grass even if it is tall and wispy.   All a matter of taste.
Amazing, meantime, how golfers insist on missing the widest fairways. No matter how wide a fairway may be they will be 1-yard further out.
This has had me thinking that it would be an idea to have rough in the middle and a fairway up each side ...and if they don't use those I'll become an advocate of natural golf and let all the grass grow.

[Pat Ruddy]

This picture is the PAR-5 third hole.
Most people get it down in front of the green in two (or more) with the land lying to the right opening a gap for the running approach ... providing you stop your second short of gathering bunker!
On the other hand ..... when the Real Tiger visited a few years ago he went drive, 5-iron, 3-foot putt...and there was some wind about.
So, the game can be played!
But ours is a game of skill demands and no mistake.

[Adrian_Stiff]

This picture is the PAR-5 third hole.
Most people get it down in front of the green in two (or more) with the land lying to the right opening a gap for the running approach ... providing you stop your second short of gathering bunker!
On the other hand ..... when the Real Tiger visited a few years ago he went drive, 5-iron, 3-foot putt...and there was some wind about.
So, the game can be played!
But ours is a game of skill demands and no mistake.

Pat, the course looks beautiful, I love those pictures of the flora in the rough, it looks more than deserving of the high rankings it has achieved and even more credit shoud be given to such a high ranking of a new course, TEC has not received enough praise for this, although in some respects its a backward compliment because the course does look 100, and not a baby of 13.

[Jack_Marr]

There has probably been a lot of changes since I played, but the fairways are a little flatter in the European Club than Enniscrone.

Another thing that makes the European Club a little different is one massive green. Is it the same green that has or had a bunker in the middle of it.

Also, the last time I played it, it was suggested that I play all 20 holes.

Then there's the bunkers with the railway wood in them.

The 10th, I think, is also an interesting hole. You have to be right in hte middle of the fairway to see the green.

And, along with the courses Pat mentioned, I would also recommend Arklow. A beautiful subtle links course, with some great holes.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Redanman,  Number three plays downhill and is reachable in two.  It is possible to run the ball up. In an earlier post I noted that I made a double-eagle on the hole.  So I find it eminently playable.

[Dan_Callahan]

At what time of year were those pictures taken?

I can't imagine a course looking any more spectacular than that, so whenever it was, that must be the perfect time to visit.

[SPDB]

I was thinking the same thing as Redanman. For some reason the fairway looks like it slopes down and to the right leaving a hanging lie for us right handers. Not so bad, but assuming you push your approach right (as the tendency is when playing off a hanging lie) it looks like everything funnels down to that gathering bunker on the right side (left in the picture) of the green behind the sandhill. Can you see that bunker from the fairway? It looks diabolical....I love it.

[Pat Ruddy]

Hello SPDB (or whatever)
To answer your question ref visibility of bunker at front of green 3.
Look at the first picture at Post 7 above and you will see the view of the green and the bunker from up the fairway.
We are heavy on visibility at The European Club .... including having a look at those white knuckles on the club (and mentally) as guys wonder have they got what it takes.
All golf isn't played on grass.

[Jack_Marr]

Redanman,  Number three plays downhill and is reachable in two.  It is possible to run the ball up. In an earlier post I noted that I made a double-eagle on the hole.  So I find it eminently playable.

On a windy day, i made an eagle on that hole. Drive and a nine iron, nearly off the back, and a monster put. The holes into the wind were not so easy.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tight versus wide?  
How wide does golf need to be?  Indeed, when is wide golf heading into non-golf or batter-ball country?  
Big questions.

Pat,

Thanks. This crew has never met a fairway that was too wide, so I don't think this is the right place to answer the question.

You are right, it is a BIG question and I do wonder what is the correct answer. On the rare occasion that I break 80, it is typically on a less penal and probably wide golf course with less severe greens. Does that make it a better or worse golf course if I shoot 85 with narrower fairways? Don't really know.

[Darren_Kilfara]

In my one round at TEC - on a windy day - I thought the fairways were too narrow to be playable, or at least to be playable in a fun way. (I spent my whole afternoon walking up and down dune slopes looking for golf balls, which as a low handicapper is not something I expect to do unless I and my playing partners are doing really badly.) I can tolerate that on an otherworldly course like Royal County Down, but TEC felt more of a slog to me than an enjoyable golf experience.

That said, this is the danger of trying to make general conclusions after playing a golf course only once. If I'd caught the course on a less windy day, or if I'd been playing better (i.e. better able to cope with the wind), who's to say I wouldn't feel quite differently?

Re: the question of "how wide does golf need to be", Pat, I think you've phrased this question somewhat incorrectly. The answer depends entirely upon the strategic options which are available once you get to the wide part of the course. A 50-yard-wide fairway to an unchallenging green complex is a joke; a 100-yard-wide fairway with OB tight on the side from which by far the best angle of approach can be found can be very interesting. The final hole on the Old Course is a perfect example of this: nobody in their right mind would ever miss the fairway unless either a) you're a long hitter who is suckered into trying to drive the green, or b) you're a high-handcap short hitter who feels there's a significant advantage in trying to take the "shortest distance between two points" line to the green, or even c) you feel the best angle into a given hole location is from the left side of the fairway, but you overdo it and hit a sweeping hook out of bounds. (Some people feel the final hole at TOC is a letdown; I've always felt it is the perfect example of a hole which offers strategic options to *every* golfer, no matter how good or bad, and should be justly celebrated as such.)

This is not to say that every fairway on every course needs to be 40+ yards wide. However, a steady diet of narrowness on a course where wind is likely to be a significant factor seems to me the equivalent of a black diamond ski slope - only the fittest and most capable should look to take it on, because for everyone else you're not likely to have much fun (and may hurt yourself in the process).

Cheers,
Darren

[Mark Pearce]

The course looks interesting and challenging and I certainly will look to visit when I finally get over to Ireland to play some golf.  The photos suggest it is a high quality design.

One comment, though.  Doesn't it look rather green?  I'm all in favour of conditioning but is this course firm and fast?  For me that's an absolute requirement of a links course.

[Pat Ruddy]

Mr Kilfara
You are probably right.  Trying to judge a complex golf course after one visit during which you spent most of your time in the rough is foolish in the extreme and unfair to the golf course.  You say there was wind and you do not say you played well.
In fact, every hole on The European Club offers target areas from the tee and for second shots not less than 40-yards wide and sometimes as much as 90-yards wide.   The tactics of some players will nonetheless lead them into trouble if they do not have the game to go with their tactics.

Mr Pearce
Come and play.  I don't know when those pictures were taken but there are seasons in every country.  We run nice all the time and can go old-fashioned mean anytime we like and especially in Summer. But when we do go that way another pack of hounds begins to bay!  So, as you can't please'em all everyday, we do it our way.

[jeffwarne]

Imagine that, a course in Ireland that's green

What's next, the sky's too blue?
(Great pictures by the way)

Great answer by Mr. Ruddy about the seasons.
Firm and fast and (brown) are tough to obtain in the spring and fall if they're particularly wet.
(Although my guess is it's quite firm and quite fast even at its' greenest)


I don't know why they don't just put in the glass bubble to keep that pesky rain off.--- A minimalist bubble though without moving too much dirt

[Darren_Kilfara]

Mr Kilfara
You are probably right.  Trying to judge a complex golf course after one visit during which you spent most of your time in the rough is foolish in the extreme and unfair to the golf course.

The only rejoinder I would make to this is that if all of us were restricted to commenting only about courses we'd played multiple times and in a variety of conditions is that this website would be MUCH quieter than it currently is! (I wouldn't say my comments on TEC are *invalid*; I would say they are *less valid* than someone who is more familiar with the course.)

Cheers,
Darren

[Ally Mcintosh]

i am yet to play pat's course (even though i have lived in dublin for seven years) so i cannot comment... enjoying reading the thread though... i've only posted here to agree with darren on the 18th at the old course... it is one of my very favourite holes in golf - an absolute gem of a finish