[Tom Huckaby]

Is there still a Handicap requirement at Muirfield? It was 18 when I played there.

It was 18 when I was last there also - 2002.  We had to use some creativity for a couple of the guys....  

[Mark Chaplin]

Ah the jacket and tie, it is part of the older British golf club culture and one which is worth taking part in as part of your British experience. I can only think of 6 (I'm sure there's one or two more) totally private clubs in the UK where you have to be a guest of a member....Swinley Forest, Loch Lomond, Queenwood, Wisley, Bearwood Lakes and Glasgow. Only 2 of them appear in the Golf World top 50. Every course that has held The Open will allow you with some planning to pay a greenfee and tee up.

To visit Muirfield and not lunch would be like visiting St.Andrews and walking down the road on the last to avoid walking over the Swilken Bridge.

If you want coffee prior to your game you will need the jacket & tie at Muirfield, the food is what we would describe as great schoolboy food, but hey your only playing there for a day so only an ounce or two will go on the waist line.

Hands up those with no contacts at the club up who'd put on a pink tutu at lunch to play Merion, PV or NGLA. All the better clubs in the UK ask is that you book a tee time, pay a greenfee and dress smartly at lunch, and smartly means a jacket and tie.....is that such a bad deal?

Earlier this year a group of us visited St.A for 3 days and were lucky enough to have invitations to use the R&A clubhouse, we all adorned our jackets and club ties and after drinks went up to the dining room where we were seated at the table overlooking the course. Not only did we enjoy a splendid lunch and wines but an R&A member walked over introduced himself and welcomed us members from Royal Cinque Ports. He had recognised the club tie and wanted to say hello.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mark - that was perfectly and eloquently and wonderfully stated.  To me it's all normal and fine and goes beyond "when in Rome" - you stated it so well.  I would hope that all potential visitors read your post, and take in its spirit.

I really do cherish the memories I have from both Muirfield and St. Andrews, and each would be substantially lesser sans the time in the clubhouses.  And yes, putting on a coat and tie was part of each experience - to me a positive part.

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Earlier this year a group of us visited St.A for 3 days and were lucky enough to have invitations to use the R&A clubhouse, we all adorned our jackets and club ties and after drinks went up to the dining room where we were seated at the table overlooking the course. Not only did we enjoy a splendid lunch and wines but an R&A member walked over introduced himself and welcomed us members from Royal Cinque Ports. He had recognised the club tie and wanted to say hello.

Mark, your experience at the R & A for lunch was just like mine.  Hopefully you weren't over-served like my brother and I were and blew off the afternoon round on the New for a nap!  

[ForkaB]

Mark

Of the six clubs you listed above, I've played on two of them unaccompanied by a member and turned down numerous offers to play a third (for much dinero).  As for the other 3, I have no experience, but I'd bet that HuckaB or JakaB could find their way onto them if either really put his mind to it

[Mark Chaplin]

Rich - I've played Wisley but not tried to get on the others, life is about forming relationships and doors open for you.

Bill - I must confess to lunching well before my lap of the Old Course. Teeing off last of 8 having watched the first group and my three partners hit the fairway, the port was rapidly losing it's effect. Not only did I hit the fairway but I hit the pin with my second shot.....needless to say it went down hill from there, but happy memories.

Tom - Thank you for your kind words.

Mark

[ForkaB]

MNark

Life is also about being there.  If you want to play any of those other courses, just call up and ask if it is possible.  I think you'll find that a little bit of politeness goes a long way.

[Andy Scanlon]

Is it individual or community showers...In that I mean stalls or a big room..

Stalls.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Again it is a great tradition which I have enjoyed several times. I would not push for this to be the norm anywhere else though. Rye actually does somewhat the same thing. And I do love Rye.

[Andy Scanlon]

Is there still a Handicap requirement at Muirfield? It was 18 when I played there.

It was 18 when I was last there also - 2002.  We had to use some creativity for a couple of the guys....  

If I remember right, it is still 18, but I was not asked for proof of handicap while there.

[Ally Mcintosh]

quick question about playing at muirfield... is there a best way to request a tee-time?... it's mapped out for you at st.andrews (day in september the year previous or risk the ballot) but not sure about muirfield...

let's say i'd like to play on a thursday in june 2008 (which i do - i know thursday is a visitors day)

thanks folks

[Stan Dodd]

Ally,
It is all detailed on their website and reservations can be made on-line.

[Tom Huckaby]

And to get more specific...

http://www.muirfield.org.uk/index.cfm?action=visitorTeeTimes

It's amazing how far the club has come.

TH

[Andrew Mitchell]

Ally

Just go to the website http://www.muirfield.org.uk/index.cfm?action=visitorTeeTimes

find your chosen day and follow the instructions.  At the moment you don't appear to be able to book beyond November 2007.  The website indicates that they take bookings up to 12 months ahead so you'll have to keep checking back when we near June 2007.

[Ally Mcintosh]

thanks lads... guess i should've checked first... that must be a new system though... it never used to be so "public" at muirfield - it was like a secret you had to find out

[Daryl David]

Ally,
Another little secret.  If you write Ms. McCarthy ahead of the when the web opens up bookings, she will sometimes reserve you a time anyway.  

[John Kavanaugh]

thanks lads... guess i should've checked first... that must be a new system though... it never used to be so "public" at muirfield - it was like a secret you had to find out

I can't believe that Muirfield has given in to the American baby boomer who if they can not access information from their Blueberry will stomp up and down like overfed pompous bastards they are.  I guess what we have been saying is that US privates do allow play but they keep the methods underhat where they should be.  Count me in as one who will be playing Muirfield with a member or not at all....and not on two for tuesdays..It would be hypocritical for me to do anything else.

[ForkaB]

Is Ms. McCarthy Ms. Mustard in a reincarnated or remarried form?

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

It would indeed be hypocritical for you to play Muirfield on a guest day... couldn't agree more.

But try getting a member to sponsor a group of 16 Americans they don't know.  

Thus I for one was thankful for the system in place.  Oh, it wasn't the perfect cool fun it would be perhaps to experience with one good guest friend and two member friends... but at times beggars can't be choosers.

TH

[Scott Stearns]

where but the British Isles can one find clubs where members will greet strange golfers in their midst, making them feel welcome simply because of their respect for the visitors' home club.

I guess the same place where they wouldn't dream of allowing a non-golf function, like a wedding, to interfere with life at their club.

Its none of my business-i'm a guest when i go-but I like jacket and tie in the dining room, at least at clubs I play only once per year.

Anybody willing to put on jacket and tie wants to be there, and be part of the plan.  it keeps out the people who aren't there for the golf.

[Tim Pitner]

Thus I for one was thankful for the system in place.  Oh, it wasn't the perfect cool fun it would be perhaps to experience with one good guest friend and two member friends... but at times beggars can't be choosers.

I find it somewhat odd that people who are supposed to be really into golf courses and golf architecture are often at least as interested in the atmosphere of the club.  Tom H, I'm sorry to use your post as the springboard for this comment, but if people are often (consciously or not) judging courses by criteria other than the course itself, I can understand why people don't rate a course like Pacific Dunes as highly as others--no old money feel to the place.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

I appreciate the apology.

But let me clarify a few things - I've stated this many times before on here, but you're still relatively new, so you don't get my take on things:

1.  I am very interested in golf courses; I am only tangentially interested in golf course architecture.  The former fascinates me as they provide the field of play for the game I love; the latter mystifies me and I surely don't have the hubris to think I can understand what really goes into it.  I think many here miss THAT in their comments and assessments....

2.  In any assessment of a GOLF COURSE, I find it patently silly NOT to include things such as feel, views, other intangibles - in my mind, if you feel it, it counts.  Some call this an assessment of the golf experience, with negative connotations.  I truly believe it's the only proper way to assess a golf course.  If you really want to assess "golf course architecture", then you'd necessarily have to get into what went into the construction, the nature of the site pre-construction, costs and skill in keeping such within the clients's wishes - all of the things golfers don't really care about and certainly have no clue about.  But if "architecture" is really what you are trying to assess, how can you not consider these things?  And then why should this really matter as one plays the golf course?

3.  What makes you assume "old money feel" is a positive?  I've been plenty of places with tons of that that turned me off completely.  PD seems to me to be neutral in this aspect.. that is, there's noting in terms of tradition or feel to be a real positive or negative.  Now the VIEWS there, that does matter... But in terms of feel, PD might lose to a place like The Old Course, sure... but what course doesn't?  And why shouldn't that matter?

4.  It's taking it a bit too far in any case to say anyone here - especially me - is interested in these "intangibles" "at least as much as the golf course."  Please.  The course again is what matters most... But to say these things don't matter at all to me is silly.  Say they make up 5% or less of the evaluation.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Tom,

I approach courses and architecture similarly to you--maybe that's why I enjoy engaging in discussions with you.

Let me explain my comments further.  I agree that external factors, whether it's scenery or how you're treated, are going to affect how one evaluates a course.  That's unavoidable and I'm not ever going to suggest that one should put blinders on and only consider the architecture of holes, without regard to their context.  

But, some comments on this thread and the Muirfield Model thread bothered me, namely the ones suggesting that giving unaccompanied guests access, even on a very limited basis, will diminish the golf experience, even for the guests of members.  To me, that is only true if exclusivity (or the penumbra of exclusivity from the guest's perspective) is what you're seeking.  If a member doesn't want to turn his course into a semi-private (according to John K), fine.  But, let's not say that it's on balance better that way, especially for non-members, non-raters and even (imagine!) people who aren't members of any private club and don't enjoy reciprocity.  

I guess what I'm saying is that if I should be so fortunate to play NGLA one day, I'm going to be excited about playing the golf course and it wouldn't matter to me one iota whether I was a privileged guest of a member or an unaccompanied guest who was given access via some Muirfield-like policy.  I don't want to get through the gates--I want to play the golf course.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

OK, I understand better now - and that does make a lot of sense and is very worth wondering about.

I do however think it is just human nature to value greater something one can't easily obtain over something easily obtained.  SO... in this context, what's difficult about Bandon are two things:  the price (it ain't cheap) and the location (it ain't easy to get to).  So whereas PD might again fail against NGLA in terms of "private" panache, it wins big time over a lot of other courses in these two areas.

NGLA is a great example.  I was VERY lucky to get to play it a few years ago, and I must say that it went about like this:

75% freaking out that I was going to play this course I thought was mythical only a few years prior, but then had come to see as damn near ideal through reading and study;

25% freaking out that a yokel like me could be let into a place of privilege like that.

So I have to admit that 25% did affect my feelings that day...

The question is, did it affect my assessment of the course?

I'd be lying if I said it didn't have any effect.  I'd like to think, however, I could keep it to a minimum.  

But I've also said on here many times that I felt ghosts at that place... so who knows?

A great example for you is Rich Goodale, who is the anti-me in this (as well as many other things).  He's stated many times that things like this have zero effect on him.  So I guess in the end if you want to discuss the golf course pure and simple, all emotion removed - he's your man.

If you want to talk about what it's like to play a course for those who do get affected, well... I'd likely be a better source.

TH

[ForkaB]

Tim

Do not listen to Tom, at least in terms of me.  He knows not of what he speaks, but at least he is consistent in his ignorance!

Cheers

Rich

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