Second Thoughts on Bandon Trails

[Jason Blasberg]

C&C's greens do get a bit repetitive, as I've seen this green, or similar thereto on several of their courses now, at OS, for instance I recall a very similar style about 3-4 times.  Perhaps they're starting a new template?    






Here again, different hole, very much a similar appearing green:



and again:




More of this, by contrast is what I'd like to see:



It seems to me that in some more recent designs they lack imagination in the more low-profile greensites.  Contrast the first three photos above which appear redundant to me with the photos of the low-profile 5th green and 8th greens at Cuscowilla in Ran's review.  Every green surface is distinct at Cuscowilla, something I wish they did more often of late.

Interestingly, their most interesting green surfaces coincide with the more interesting greensites when you arguably need less creativity on the green because the site gives you more and the less interesting green surfaces are on the less interesting green sites when you arguably need more creativity because the site gives you less.   That appears to be the case with Bandon Trails in the photos above, which are all from Frank Pont's wonderful website.

[George Pazin]

I'm not trying to be a pain, but is that a serious question, Jason? What distinguishes that green in such a manner that it could be viewed as a template? Shape? Orientation?

[Jason Blasberg]

I'm not trying to be a pain, but is that a serious question, Jason? What distinguishes that green in such a manner that it could be viewed as a template? Shape? Orientation?

George, that's my point, it's indistinguishable.  Like many similar green surfaces I see on their courses.  Perhaps their template is the indistinguishable green?

[John Kirk]

I just had dinner with the reigning club champion at our club here in Oregon.  Really fine player.  The subject of Bandon Trails came up.  He loves the place, and after 7-8 rounds there he is beginning to see the nuances in the course, and believes it may be his favorite of the three.

Bandon Trails is a hard golf course, and it may appeal most to the low handicap player.  I certainly like it a lot, and having only played it twice, will probably continue to enjoy it more with repeated play.

I've said it before, but I rarely love a good golf course the first time around.  The more I play a good course, the more I appreciate and enjoy it.  Course raters have an awfully tough job evaluating a course in one round.

[ed_getka]

Phil,
   If your friend had 12 3-putts at BT, he just can't putt. I like challenging greens and most of the courses I play have plenty of contour, so BT may have just seemed tame in comparison to me. There are things to pick apart at BT, but over the top greens is not one of them IMO. Sure there are some doozy pin positions that can be found, but not 12 on the same day.

[John Kavanaugh]

I just had dinner with the reigning club champion at our club here in Oregon.  Really fine player.  The subject of Bandon Trails came up.  He loves the place, and after 7-8 rounds there he is beginning to see the nuances in the course, and believes it may be his favorite of the three.

Bandon Trails is a hard golf course, and it may appeal most to the low handicap player.  I certainly like it a lot, and having only played it twice, will probably continue to enjoy it more with repeated play.

I've said it before, but I rarely love a good golf course the first time around.  The more I play a good course, the more I appreciate and enjoy it.  Course raters have an awfully tough job evaluating a course in one round.

I've said many times now that I think Bandon Trails is the best of the three courses.  I like playing the greens once a year with people I see once a year.  Kinda like standing in the freak tent at a state fair...you want to be there for the thrill and you need company so it's not just you and the freak.

[John Kirk]

I've said many times now that I think Bandon Trails is the best of the three courses.  I like playing the greens once a year with people I see once a year.  Kinda like standing in the freak tent at a state fair...you want to be there for the thrill and you need company so it's not just you and the freak.

The greens at the Trails make sense.  The most undulating greens, 5 and 16, along with the tricky and difficult 14th green, belong to the short holes.  16 is only 510 yards long.  There's no reason why the better player can't play away from the difficulty, safely below the hole and make his 5.  If you want to tempt fate and try to make a 4, so be it.

Hole 5 is anywhere between an 8 iron to a gap wedge.  You should be able to get the ball into a safe position with that club.  The green is huge, and bogey should be easy.

Hole 7 has an undulating green also.  It is very similar to hole 6 at Ballyneal, a long, wide, uphill par 4, with a sloped green.  Both holes give the long hitter an advantage, which in my mind is a very good thing to do.  You don't want to always reward accuracy over power.

Thanks a lot, guys.  Now the only thing I want to do is get down there an play it a few more times.

[Dan Smoot]

I just had dinner with the reigning club champion at our club here in Oregon.  Really fine player.  The subject of Bandon Trails came up.  He loves the place, and after 7-8 rounds there he is beginning to see the nuances in the course, and believes it may be his favorite of the three.

Bandon Trails is a hard golf course, and it may appeal most to the low handicap player.  I certainly like it a lot, and having only played it twice, will probably continue to enjoy it more with repeated play.

I've said it before, but I rarely love a good golf course the first time around.  The more I play a good course, the more I appreciate and enjoy it.  Course raters have an awfully tough job evaluating a course in one round.

I played Bandon Trails last December for one round.  I had heard some things in advance on this site, mainly about 5 and 14.  The foursome I played with had never played the course before.  I found this course to be more difficult than the other courses but on a first time play, It is difficult to separate the lack of course familiarity with one's play.  In general, the difficultly everyone in our group had was around the greens and it mainly had to do with controlling speed.  Hole No. 5 was a treat to watch people since the pin was located just barely on the upper tier.  Those 6 to 10 foot comeback putts just wore everyone down.   One fellow in our group was totally out of sync because he never got a feel for the greens all day.  You could almost predict what he was going to do.

Something interesting the caddies in our group mentioned was that they did not think the Trails greens had yet settled in to provide a consistant pace from green to green.  I couldn't judge that for myself, but it seemed plausible.  I don't know if this something that occurs when a course is maturing.

A typical adjustment most people must make when venturing to Bandon are firm conditions both in the fairway and on the greens.  I recommended Bandon to a fellow golfer going to Oregon.  His initial response upon his return was not surprising,  "I don't know how to stop a ball on a basketball court".  You have to take your bluegrass game out of the box to score well.

For a course that does wind through a forested area, Trails surprisingly has room off the tee.  The finishing holes provided a great challenge for me coming in.  No. 18 and its undulating fairway is quite something to experience, similar to 16 at PD.  In spite of all the stories I heard on this site about 14, I failed terribly when the pin was back right.  Each course at the resort has its own flavor.  I love them all and can't wait to get back to see if Trails was as difficult as it appeared.

[Mark Chaplin]

Jason,

I can see your point but what sort of holes have you photographed, I very much doubt the 3rd picture is of a 150yd par 3 green just as your final picture is unlikely to be that of a 470yd par 4. The green must fit type of hole or we end up with a poor hole even if the architect has designed an "interesting" green complex.

[Greg Tallman]

Under punishment of ridicule and possible banishment...

Thou shalt not question or criticize the gods of GCA!

Any course designed by:
TD or C&C
cannot be objectively discussed... only positive comments welcome!
 
The cult like nature of this board is humorous. That said I do enjoy the knowledge and opinion shared here but reserve the right to call a spade a spade.  

[Phil Benedict]

What's interesting to me is that Dan Smoot's comments about his first time experience sound a lot like my friend's - tough greens and lots of 6-10 foot comeback putts.  Dan came away liking the course and my friend hated it.  

My friend may not know Coore & Crenshaw from the Everly Brothers, so he was not predisposed one way or another towards Bandon Trails.

[tonyt]

I took three shots instead of two to hit a number of par 4s yesterday. Therefore the course must be bad.

The course doesn't owe anybody a quota of greens in regulation. And equally, it doesn't owe anybody a quota of two putts. The two putt par mantra is one of the most damaging principles of modern golf.

The world has plenty of flat or minutely banked two puttable greens. Maybe close to 90-95% of all greens lack the variation to greatly challenge the golfer otherwise. It is no surprise when a golfer doesn't jump for joy if faced with some greens making up the tiny 5-10% of the rest. But no need to further reduce their joy for the sake of more of the same!

[BCrosby]

The cult like nature of this board is humorous.

It's nice to know that we amuse you.

But before you get too smug about cults like this, I would suggest you sharpen your reading skills. There is certainly no unanimity about likes and dislikes at GCA, but preferences do exist. The reasons given are diverse and almost always debated. Most of us pick up a bit of knowledge in those debates. Sounds like - since you know how to call a spade a spade -  you would have little to learn from those discussions.

Still, you might chime in from time to time to let us know how humorous you find us.

Thanks, Bob

[tonyt]

Under punishment of ridicule and possible banishment...

Thou shalt not question or criticize the gods of GCA!

Any course designed by:
TD or C&C
cannot be objectively discussed... only positive comments welcome!
 
The cult like nature of this board is humorous. That said I do enjoy the knowledge and opinion shared here but reserve the right to call a spade a spade.  

Then please stop calling a spade something which is not.

I post in good faith, and have shown on various websites enough in my posts that I make no differentiation between Tom Doak, C&C or some local town planner when it comes to praising or criticising a golf course. And many others on here do same. So to wrap EVERYONE up in a bundle of treehouse group-think is ignorant, and demonstrably wrong.
I DO know that you know an inadequate amount about ME to file my thoughts away as being auto-conformist.

The worst part of it is, I only get accused of this group-think when praising something done by one of the "sacred cows". Which is like taking a healthy eating person who eats chocolate once a week and telling them at that precise moment they are obviously an unhealthy chocoholic.

Apart from all that, it pays to know that some cliches in life did a lot of hard yards and passed a lot of stern tests of credibility to eventually become cliches. If I were to agree with a cliche because it is one, then quite correctly you should laugh at me. But if it is because I too see the merit in the cliche, then I am doing no wrong.

To blindly play devil's advocate merely to avoid a certain commonly held outcome is at least as great a crime.

[Greg Tallman]

BCrosby,

Apologies if my "smug" comments were taken a little too much to heart and I assure you my reading skills are razor sharp(perhaps that is the problem... truly understanding what is written).


I am not certain as to your point about learning from the discussions as I clearly stated that I generally enjoy the knowledge(as in I learn from the comments) and opinion offered on the site.

The "opinion" that is offered regrding certain designers often lacks objectivity and substance... simply bowing down to what may or may not be a great design because "it is a (insert GCA god) course"

I do not question the talents of those that are granted godlike status on here but cetainly question some of the blanket worshipings bestowed on them while other tremendously talented people are ripped mercilessly.

I happen to believe that one of those I used as an example is the best designer in the business. That does change the fact that I feel most on here simply assume a course is good based on the fact that sos and so was the designer.

Once again apologies if you find this offensive... Heck why not just find it humorous!

[George Pazin]

The cult like nature of this board is humorous. That said I do enjoy the knowledge and opinion shared here but reserve the right to call a spade a spade.

Sorry, Greg, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but you just hit on one of my biggest pet peeves.

People are of course entitled to their own opinion, but to label certain people's preferences as cult-like is very loose thinking, imho.

There is no valid reason I've been shown to think said people don't actually REALLY LIKE C&C courses (or Doak, or whomever people feel as though there is a bias in favor of), for whatever their reasons are, beyond simply being sycophants. I'm not aware of anyone doing any blind testing to see if people are truly biased, I'll leave that to the real scientists out there to figure out.

Many seem to feel their own objectivity is beyond reproach, while others are simply sheep following the herd. More loose thinking, imho. Why people feel the need to question others' motives and standards while their own are above that is beyond silly, again imho.

As an example, I loved playing Hidden Creek last year, would join in a heartbeat if I had the cash and lived a little closer. It had nothing to do with the fact that C&C designed, it had everything to do with the fact that I really enjoyed the course. I also loved playing Tom D's Rawls Course a few years ago, would play it often if I lived in the area. Maybe, just maybe, I like those courses because I enjoyed playing them, not because they happened to be designed by people others feel are favored on here. (If you would care to learn why I liked those courses, there is plenty of opinion posted by yours truly in the archives.)

If any of the folks who love to trot out the bias/cult/preferred treatment arguments would care to share their ability to read minds, I have some other projects it would yield highly lucrative results....

End of rant.

 

[Michael Dugger]

Under punishment of ridicule and possible banishment...

Thou shalt not question or criticize the gods of GCA!

Any course designed by:
TD or C&C
cannot be objectively discussed... only positive comments welcome!
 
The cult like nature of this board is humorous. That said I do enjoy the knowledge and opinion shared here but reserve the right to call a spade a spade.  

Puh leez, that's a total bunch of hogwash.

What I always find funny about the alleged cultism around here is the reversal of preferences.  Until gca.com came along all I every heard and read about was Nicklaus, Palmer and/or Rees Jones.  

THAT was the cult.  Finally the playing field has been leveled.

What is funny is how short term some people's memories are.  

 

[tonyt]

The "opinion" that is offered regrding certain designers often lacks objectivity and substance... simply bowing down to what may or may not be a great design because "it is a (insert GCA god) course"

Who's the member of a cult?

The person who notices a golf course feature or principle, or the person who notices which archie has been commented on?

It is like a wine example I like to remind people of. The person sneering at another table because they are drinking a premium wine and calling them wine snobs is actually often the wine snob. For he is noticing the label they are drinking, whilst they may be enjoying merely the wine and each other's company.

[Greg Tallman]

The cult like nature of this board is humorous. That said I do enjoy the knowledge and opinion shared here but reserve the right to call a spade a spade.

Sorry, Greg, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but you just hit on one of my biggest pet peeves.

People are of course entitled to their own opinion, but to label certain people's preferences as cult-like is very loose thinking, imho.

There is no valid reason I've been shown to think said people don't actually REALLY LIKE C&C courses (or Doak, or whomever people feel as though there is a bias in favor of), for whatever their reasons are, beyond simply being sycophants. I'm not aware of anyone doing any blind testing to see if people are truly biased, I'll leave that to the real scientists out there to figure out.

Many seem to feel their own objectivity is beyond reproach, while others are simply sheep following the herd. More loose thinking, imho. Why people feel the need to question others' motives and standards while their own are above that is beyond silly, again imho.

As an example, I loved playing Hidden Creek last year, would join in a heartbeat if I had the cash and lived a little closer. It had nothing to do with the fact that C&C designed, it had everything to do with the fact that I really enjoyed the course. I also loved playing Tom D's Rawls Course a few years ago, would play it often if I lived in the area. Maybe, just maybe, I like those courses because I enjoyed playing them, not because they happened to be designed by people others feel are favored on here. (If you would care to learn why I liked those courses, there is plenty of opinion posted by yours truly in the archives.)

If any of the folks who love to trot out the bias/cult/preferred treatment arguments would care to share their ability to read minds, I have some other projects it would yield highly lucrative results....

End of rant.

 

George,

A better stated version of my opinion... sheep following the herd is far more accuate than "cult". Certainly did not wish to convey that my objectvity is beyond reproach even if the original post could be taken in such a manner. Apologies.

I do  maintain however that there is a bit of a groupie feel to the site.

Reviews such as yours providing rationale for a like or dislike of a facility are those that are enjoyed and provide the opportunity to learn what it is different people take from a round of golf.  

[Tim Pitner]

My concern with the Trails has more to do with narrow playing corridors and lost balls off the fairways, especially on 15-18.

I sure don't think of #15 as being too narrow (although the placement of the tee shot is very important).  I agree that #16 and #18 can play that way.  

I really don't believe that the greens at Bandon Trails are all that severe, apart from #5.  #14 is crowned, but I don't remember the internal contours as severe.  I was very impressed with Trails when I played it for the first time this past June.  I can't rate it over Pacific Dunes though.  

[ChipRoyce]

Played Bandon Trails yesterday and was interesting to come across this thread as I had a few similar thoughts as those mentioned. One note, the winds during my visit were almost non-existent making the courses a little easier to play.

I don't want to dissect the course hole by hole, but had a bunch of different thoughts as I played my round:

1) Comparisons to Pine Valley;
In some ways, this is an excellent homage to PV and a great way for the playing public to experience that kind of experience. That said, they are very different courses and was a little disappointed that many of the greens are too ample. I felt that smaller and more guarded greensites (examples: #2 (par 3), #8,)

2) Resort Golf;
It seemed that parts of the course are softened up to allow the high handicapper the ability to navigate away from trouble for a somewhat easy bogey. That said, for the good golfer who seeks an agressive line, many of the hazards seem very well placed and come into play.

3) Novelty Holes;
In speaking with a bunch of people, 2 holes seemed to elicit the most discussion even conjuring the words " Carnival golf". I have to agree with the 5th hole - it is a really fun green and great to see such massive undulation. However, just seemed unfair and unrealistic. I hit a great shot left of a center pin, pin high. My putt litterally oscilated back and forth towards the pin (left / right / left / right) before settling 7 feet past. I made the putt, but it just seemed overdone.

However, others seem to severly criticize 14 as well and I thought this was a great hole! For a par 4, birdie is almost impossible and that's ok for me. I think those who get too agressive don't realize that the play is pin high on the left and to putt up the hill from the fairway left of the green.

[ed_getka]

Chip,
   I am curious to hear what you think of #6 (the green in particular), and #18 (which most people never talk about)?

What did you think of the stretch from #13-17?

[Bob_Huntley]

Puh leez, that's a total bunch of hogwash.

What I always find funny about the alleged cultism around here is the reversal of preferences.  Until gca.com came along all I every heard and read about was Nicklaus, Palmer and/or Rees Jones.  

THAT was the cult.  Finally the playing field has been leveled.

What is funny is how short term some people's memories are.  

I have never felt that Rees Jones was afforded a modicum of respect in this forum and still feel that his detractors have no idea of of what they are talking about.

Bob

[ChipRoyce]

Chip,
   I am curious to hear what you think of #6 (the green in particular), and #18 (which most people never talk about)?

What did you think of the stretch from #13-17?

Hi Ed;
Before I comment, thanks for your (and the rest of the treehouse's) suggestions on my visit. Despite the fact that my feet are sore and blistered, I was able to see all 3 courses and enjoy Bandon and its surrounds.

Let's see....

My first comment about both 18 and 1. I love these 2 holes but what I find too funny is how these 2 holes bear little resemblance to the rest of the course. If anything these 2 holes seem to show what C&C would have done if given the land which Bandon Dunes sits on.

I really love the greensite on 18 - the sand mound to the left (which I found with my approach) and the bowled contours make it a great finish. I also liked the landing area - it seems to actually even out the big hitter vs. the averaqe Joe. The big guy certainly gets closer to the green by riding the slope down below the hole. I have to bet, however, that by not being able to see the flag makes it difficult to get their shot close. The average guy is farther back but also has a good look at his/her target.

Its so funny you ask about 6! I vaguely remember that hole. By looking at my scorecard, I was on in regulation and 2 putted but can't for the life of me recall the greensite.

As for the stretch of 13 - 17. I liked it alot. I wasn't enamored with 16, but the rest of the holes were very solid. A few comments:

This stretch is a hard walk, esp. if its your second 18 of the day. Thank god they have a cart shuttling people Between 13 and 14.

On 13, I found the greensite on 13 is a bear - our group went after the pin from all directions and was hard to not only get close, but to 2 putt. Like many of the different holes on the course C&C required you to flirt with the bunkers down the left in order to get a good angle to the green (nasty bunker defending the right side of the putting surface).

15 - Very diabolical. Not hard off the tee, but the bushes and hillside directly on the right of the green is as penal as if there were a pond there.

17 - I thought this was a great par 3. Good distance, esp. after the 235 yd 2 shotter back on 12. The green has some bold contours and I love the collection area in the back right. Actually that's a good place to miss to depending on pin position.

[Jason Blasberg]

Jason,

I can see your point but what sort of holes have you photographed, I very much doubt the 3rd picture is of a 150yd par 3 green just as your final picture is unlikely to be that of a 470yd par 4. The green must fit type of hole or we end up with a poor hole even if the architect has designed an "interesting" green complex.

Mark, having not played BT I also didn't take the photos and don't know what holes they are . . .  I disclosed in one of the earlier posts that all photos were from Frank Pont's wonderful website.