Tom Doak's Perfect Course

[Erich]

Tom,

If you were to build a golf course for yourself and your buddies what would it be like?  I always daydream and sketch out what I would want for myself and I was curious what you would do if given the chance.  I.E. How long, what type of bunkering, total par, actual location, placement of clubhouse, size of clubhouse, etc. etc.....

I know I could personally write volumes on what my own would look like, just thought it would be fun to hear yours.

[John_McMillan]

If Tom Doak does ever build his "Perfect Club," I just hope he has the good taste NOT to use Peter Kessler in endlessly looped infomericals on the Golf Channel to boost its marketing.

[mjdugger]

I predict one that is a cross between Pac Dunes and Crystal Downs, allows pets and is pleasurable to play for his wife.  Built on Sand.  

[ChipOat]

Other architects who've done the same thing:

CB MacDonald, Devereaux Emmett, Donald Ross, Jack Nicklaus, RT Jones, Jr (honorary inclusion).

Most people believe that, at WORST, these personal/private efforts are the equal of their best work for others (St. George's by Emmett is little known but what a hidden gem).

Will today's economics prevent Doak, Hanse, Dye et al from joining Nicklaus in this regard or will they be limited to building dreams for Steve Wynn, Hall Thompson, Jack Vickers, etc.

Tom Doak:

Assume you have to live and play there (preferably in competition) at least 7 months a year.

[Erich]

Remember that this can be anything he wants to design it doesn't have to be something on the scale of Nicklaus's Bear's Club or Muirfield Village.  It could be something simple yet amazing like The Dunes Club.  Which to me is hands down the best golf experience I have ever had.

[Bob (Guest)]

I think MJdugger is right about a cross between Pac Dunes and Crystal Downs.  I would be curious if it was nothing like what his clients have asked him for in the past.

[Joe Hancock]

I bet Tom is going to let this one play out for awhile to see what we think he thinks.

I can't imagine that an architect ever builds a course far from what his preferences are anyway. To find that ideal piece of ground to build his/her own is the difference I bet....

Joe

[McCloskey]

It is a very, very rare occurrence when any architect finds a piece of land that is ideal for a particular type of golf course design he might have in mind, i.e. his perfect course.
Every architect has to deal with what the land gives him and utilize the best attributes of that land.  To impose on the land without reason is to create a golf course that "feels" foreign to its environment.  No thinking architect would purposefully do this.  A golf course is a living, growing, changing piece of nature.  Making it all work together  visually, aesthetically, and strategically is what any architect would want his "perfect course" to be.  Thus there is no such thing as a "perfect course", except to the degree that it meets the above criteria.  Many on this board feel that they have favorite courses that come close, therefore they are as close to their "perfect course" as they are going to get.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

McClosky,
You stated it perfect.

[Joe Hancock]

McCloskey,

I agree with the ideals you've laid out for architects. Erich posted some things that definitely would be dictated by the property, i.e. length of course, par, clubhouse location, etc. I wonder if Erich was looking for a more visionary answer, somewhat along the lines of a thread several months ago discussing what everyone's private club would be like? That discussion even came down to who would have whom running it, and so on.

Tom Doak has done enough work in varied locations that we can assume some design elements he might incorporate.(I could be wrong!) Bunker styles, greens contours, etc. might not change a great deal from some of the work he has already given us. Then again.....

I have a piece of property in mind when I envision my own golf course. I wonder if Tom does as well? Does everyone else look at land when they're traveling and say, "that would make a great golf course...", like I do?

Anyway, I think we're on the same page here, and Erich is kind of singleing out one person to answer what was discussed on that aforementioned thread.

Joe

[Erich]

I didn't want to single out Tom Doak, I would love to hear what any practicing Architect would do if they found their perfect piece of land and money was not an option.  Just curious what they would come up with.

[Justin]

I wonder if anyone would do something similar to Porcupine Creek?

[Tom Doak]

McCloskey said some things very well for me.  I try not to visualize one "perfect" piece of property because they are all different and each suggests its own, hopefully unique, golf holes.

I've always enjoyed working in settings which are different from one another so it helps to vary our designs.  I'd love to do a true heathland course someday, but for now we're happy working on the cliffs of New Zealand and the sand in Australia, and I'm looking forward to the rock and roll and water features of Palm Desert.

If I built a course just for myself and my friends, it would respond to the land.  The only things you can be sure of are:

1) it would be a walking course,
2) there would be a caddie program,
3) the green and tee complexes would be seamless,
4) short game play would be emphasized as much as long,
5) it would have a smallish clubhouse with a few overnight rooms,
6) it would be less than 7000 yards from where I played, and
7) it would be absolutely free from the clutter of homes, ball washers, tee signs, etc.

[THuckaby2]

1) it would be a walking course,
2) there would be a caddie program,
3) the green and tee complexes would be seamless,
4) short game play would be emphasized as much as long,
5) it would have a smallish clubhouse with a few overnight rooms,
6) it would be less than 7000 yards from where I played, and
7) it would be absolutely free from the clutter of homes, ball washers, tee signs, etc.

Hmmmm... sounds a lot like Pacific Dunes to me!

TH

[Erich]

Tom,

It sounds great.  Thanks for the reply.  

[Pete Lavallee]

Tom, would yardage be provided? If so do you prefer a sinlge 150 marker, a kirby style system or labeled sprinkler heads?

[Erich]

Actually, how would you set up the course?  Just one tee marker ala Pine Valley or just wherever you want ala Dunes Club.  

And, most importantly what you name it.  Doak Dunes?

[Tom Doak]

The caddies would know the yardages, and so would I, so there wouldn't be any markers in Nirvana.  (Which, by the way, is a far better name than Doak Dunes!  How long do you think it will be before someone steals it?)

I'd probably let the superintendent put out a couple of tee markers to help spread out the wear and tear, but I wouldn't force everyone to play from them.

Yes, Tom, it does sound like Pacific Dunes ... or Stonewall ... or hopefully Cape Kidnappers and St. Andrews Beach and Barnbougle and a couple of the other projects we're pursuing.

[THuckaby2]

Yes, Tom, it does sound like Pacific Dunes ... or Stonewall ... or hopefully Cape Kidnappers and St. Andrews Beach and Barnbougle and a couple of the other projects we're pursuing.

TD:  that is VERY cool to hear.  Keep living the dream.  

TH

[Erich]

Your right about someone stealing the word Nirvana.  Hopefully they will hire you to design the course if they use that name.  

Could you think of anything worse than someone stealing that name and then having Tom Fazio design it?

[Roger Fleet]

Tom Doak

I was wondering if you have done, or are planning to do, any work in Ireland?

[Harmony]

I'm not sure where Tom would want to put his Nirvana, but we have given him the opportunity to satisfy all 7 criteria (and then some) listed in his posting at our Harmony Club project.  In fact, he has free reign to create anything on this course he wants with no restrictions.  We will come in behind him and ask "why?", but he has total creative freedom.
We have Georgia soil to contend with, but very few other limitations to having him totally control every facet of the job.
What will dictate the reality of this potential is whether or not there are enough of you purists out there willing to step up and pony up what it'll take to get it built.  Any takers out there???
I'll be looking for the "ideal club" thread mentioned earlier, but for us, we're looking for guys who will walk the walk.  Tom can make Nirvana in Georgia if it's important enough to be willing to pay for it.

[bakerg (Guest)]

Can you give us a little more idea of what this Harmony project is?  Private/Public/Resort etc. Location etc. etc.  

And what are the costs you are talking about?  Are you looking for founding members...

[blasbe1]

(St. George's by Emmett is little known but what a hidden gem)

You are referring to St. George's that is across the street from SUNY Stonybrook, correct?  It's a nice track, I don't think it's Emmett's best work though.  I've seen photo's of The Seawane Club from the 30s and it looked like a spectacular tract.  Seawane is currently being overhauled and returned to its links origins, certainly kudos to Emmett's orginal design after the passage of much time and many other architects' hands.  Look for Seawane to become a premier links course once again, most likely one of the best layouts in Nassau County, certainly one of, if not the best on the South Shore in Nassua and most of Suffolk, excluding the Hamptons' gems.

Emmett will still likely be know best as the first designer of Garden City Golf Club.  Although Travis certainly gets the lion's share of credit for that course's wonders.    

[Harmony]

bakerg, and any others w/ same questions:

Harmony is private, pure golf, full equity project located on Lake Oconee, 5 min. from Cuscowilla and Great Waters, 90 min. from Atl.
We don't have the raw land and vistas of PacDunes, but we ain't chopped liver either.
We meet all of T.D.'s 7 ideal criteria, tho I'm not sure of where he'd tee off...we tip out at 7050, par 70.
We are escrowing all deposits until our Founders group is full.  Significant benes for them, esp. the Charters... 1st 30.
Our challenge is getting the answer to the question...are there enough of you purists out there willing to pony up what it takes to build a Nirvana?  This isn't Field of Dreams guys.  We can create one of the greatest golf environments ever, but it takes coins.