Should a new tee be constructed

[Patrick_Mucci]

for the 13th hole, to the left of the 12th green at NGLA ?

Wouldn't a new tee to the left of # 12 green provide great flexibility, allowing the hole to be played more like # 7 and
# 11 at TOC, especially now that the 13th green has been expanded to the right ?

Wouldn't an approach from the left, with the hole cut on the right, mirror more closely the approach on # 7 at TOC ?

And, wouldn't an approach from the right, with the hole cut on the left, mirror more closely the approach on # 11 at TOC ?

Is it possible that CBM intended that duality when he structured the foot pad of # 13 green ?

Holes # 17 and # 16 have tees on each side of the proceeding green, why not # 13 ?
George Bahto indicates that perhaps holes # 8 and # 12 had the same feature, if so, why not # 13 ?

On my last visit to Southampton, when I stood above and spoke to him, he didn't rule it out by responding negatively.
.

[Michael Moore]

No.

Don't know.

Don't know.

Don't know.

Yes.

Because the one they already have is fine.

Because then every hole at National Golf Links of America would want tees like that.

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick,

Is it perhaps time to let the significant recent work at National Golf Links of America season a little bit?  Maybe time to let it be for a while.  

Mike  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Moore,

As usual, you're on the wrong side of the road.

Bogey,

So you think they should limit possible improvements, relagating them to specific time frames ?

The issue isn't whether construction should start tomorrow or at a particular point in the future.

It's a conceptual exercise, not a chronological one.

Take the dunce cap off and put the thinking cap on  

P.S.  The little back bunker in front of the large horseshoe
        shaped bunker is gone and the green now extends to
        the horseshoe shaped bunker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,

Could you move the exclamation point up toward the X, keeping it on the same side of the road, not far from the opening between the two left side rear bunkers.

Eliminate the X, Eliminate the ! and put a T in the new spot.

Thanks.

[SPDB]

It might be interesting, but I think it would be very difficult to approximate the 7th at TOC. The green at NGLA is just not big enough, if it were extended considerably closer to Sebonack Rd., then it might be plausible.

At the very least, it can't hurt, but is there any evidence that CBM wished to replicate the TOC's 1) approach to the 7th and 2) tee shot on 11?

Like I said, it might be an interesting diversion, but I'm not certain it was anything intended by CBM.

[Bill_McBride]

I played #13 twice recently, and didn't think the tee shot had any where near the fear factor of the original Eden at TOC. I think the "Strath" bunker was too far to the right of the "Hill" bunker.  The pin that day was set way left near the "Hill" bunker, so "Strath" wasn't even reasonably in play.  At the Old Course, I always feel that both are threatening every tee shot.

This has been discussed here in the near past, I don't think anyone thinks any of the replica Edens comes close to the original.  The combination of deep, threatening bunkers, the Eden River bank behind, the steep green, and the wind, all conspire to make that an incredible hole.

No doubt I'm all wet here!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

GCGC's Eden is a good replica and has the elements you reference.

What makes me give some weight to my theory is exactly what you mention.  From the current tee, no real threat, which replicates # 11 at TOC exists, whereas, with the hole locations I mentioned, from the tees I referenced, you do get those angles of attack and penal design features more into play.

SPDB,

The angles to the hole locations I referenced do bear a better resemblance to the 7th and 11th holes when compared to the current confirguration.

I also believe that there's a small foot pad to the left of # 12 green.  The next time I visit I'll pay special attention to that area.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

In my opinion a tee on the left of #13 would be a wonderful addition and lend some real variety to that hole.

I could be wrong but I doubt any of the tees on the left of #17 had anything to do with Macdonald. I think all those tees were added later just to give that hole more length. It seems Macdonald had the tees on #17 on the right but unfortunately there just wasn't any elasticity over there at all. I sure wish there was because the hole would play a whole lot different for men from over on the right. As it is with the men's tees on the left the entire right half of the fairway and that center bunkering is virtually never used as an option. But from the right tees which are used by women that center fairway bunkering is right in line with the green.

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick:

In my opinion a tee on the left of #13 would be a wonderful addition and lend some real variety to that hole.

I could be wrong but I doubt any of the tees on the left of #17 had anything to do with Macdonald. I think all those tees were added later just to give that hole more length. It seems Macdonald had the tees on #17 on the right but unfortunately there just wasn't any elasticity over there at all. I sure wish there was because the hole would play a whole lot different for men from over on the right. As it is with the men's tees on the left the entire right half of the fairway and that center bunkering is virtually never used as an option. But from the right tees which are used by women that center fairway bunkering is right in line with the green.

From the member tee two of our party played from - me and another lightweight - the carry into the wind left of the fairway bunkers was still daunting, so the safe play to the right combined with the slope of the fairway toward the bunkers, brought those fairway bunkers definitely into play.  Only those able to carry 230 into the wind were able to play safely left of the fairway bunkers.  And that aint me these days for sure.

So the first time around, into the wind, I wound up in the second bunker on the right; the afternoon round the wind had shifted and I was able to make the carry to the left and avoided the bunkers.

My point in this ramble is that the left tees do not guarantee the fairway bunkers won't be in play, you still have to hit the ball a long distance to play to the left of them.

By the way, what an exhilirating feeling to drive one safely over the wasteland into that fairway left of the bunkers!  NGLA is a special experience.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

In my opinion a tee on the left of #13 would be a wonderful addition and lend some real variety to that hole.

TEPaul,

Don't forget that the 14th hole was altered when the road went through, perhaps bringing the left side of # 14 more into play, which in turn could have resulted in the abandoning of a tee to the left of # 12 green.

In addition, you may recall, in October of 2003, you, George Bahto and I examined the area behind the current 7th tee, and there was a definite, constructed foot pad, or mini-mesa in that location.  A location which could also serve as a tee pad for # 13.

When you consider how hazardous, and seemingly out of place, the current right side 13th tee is, you have to wonder if it was the first choice or an afterthought brought about by the reconfiguration of the 14th hole.  

A tee to the left of # 12 green seems more logical, strategic and prudent.

I could be wrong but I doubt any of the tees on the left of #17 had anything to do with Macdonald.

The schematic in the back of "Scotland's Gift" shows the two left side tees on # 17 as being the predominant tees for that hole.

I've played from the tees on the right, and they present an entirely different strategic perspective.

Unfortunately, with today's high-tech balls and equipment, and prevailing wind, many good players could routinely drive the green.
When you consider that young kids are currently driving OVER that green from the left side tee, it's discouraging.  The next time you're at NGLA, play the hole from the right side tee.

CBM's schematic showed two right side tees, perhaps a men's and a ladies, so again, perhaps he wanted to present variations in the strategies and play of the holes.

I think all those tees were added later just to give that hole more length.

They appear in the 1928 schematic, so I would think he was involved with their location.

I also wonder if that schematic is in fact from 1928 and whether or not it was altered.

It seems Macdonald had the tees on #17 on the right but unfortunately there just wasn't any elasticity over there at all. I sure wish there was because the hole would play a whole lot different for men from over on the right. As it is with the men's tees on the left the entire right half of the fairway and that center bunkering is virtually never used as an option. But from the right tees which are used by women that center fairway bunkering is right in line with the green.


The problem would seem to be elevation changes rather than available land.  There is ample land to the right of the 16th green where a tee could be extended, however, I believe that the land drops down from the high point of the existing right side tee.

As you said, having to hit toward the left side trouble instead of away from it, changes the play of the hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

I believe that the North wind you played into is unusual.

A prevailing wind tends to be from the South-Southwest.

[SPDB]

Pat -
I may be wrong, but I thought Eden holes generally replicated the par 3 11th hole and not the approach of the par 4 7th. In this regard, the current tee does a reasonably good job of approximating the 11th (where you sort of play left of the Shell Bunker, or play over it and the Strath at your peril). Certainly its not half the hole that the 11th at TOC, but I don't think that's the point.

If I read you correctly, you're making it sound like your idea would better replicate the shot values of both the 11th and the 7th. The only point I'm trying to make is that I'm not sure CBM had the 7th in mind when designing the hole, so the issue of better approximating the 7th hole is largely irrelevant.

Like I said, I think its an interesting idea, but not one that I think CBM was concerned with.

[Bill_McBride]

I wouldn't know, only had the pleasure once!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat -
I may be wrong, but I thought Eden holes generally replicated the par 3 11th hole and not the approach of the par 4 7th.


That's correct, but, that's not the issue.

The issue is replicating the use of the same putting surface to produce two distinct shots, from two seperate angles of attack, just like at # 7 and # 11 at TOC.

In this regard, the current tee does a reasonably good job of approximating the 11th (where you sort of play left of the Shell Bunker, or play over it and the Strath at your peril).

Not really

If you look at the approach from the current tee it looks more like the approach from # 7, especially since the hole is almost never cut to the far left of the green near Hill Bunker.

Certainly its not half the hole that the 11th at TOC, but I don't think that's the point.

But, it is part of the point.
From the current tee it falls short of replicating the approach on # 11.

If I read you correctly, you're making it sound like your idea would better replicate the shot values of both the 11th and the 7th.

The only point I'm trying to make is that I'm not sure CBM had the 7th in mind when designing the hole, so the issue of better approximating the 7th hole is largely irrelevant.

I think he did, he'd have to be blind not to see all of the features in the context of the two holes.  It's one in the same putting surface, the same bunker configurations with Strath, Hill and Cockle and the same basic relationship to the other bunkers and the green.

Like I said, I think its an interesting idea, but not one that I think CBM was concerned with.

We disagree

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael, that's great.

Now, if anyone has the "World Atlas of Golf"  go to the section on National Golf Links of America and look at the picture on page 135.

You can clearly see a raised, artificial platform, a tee pad, to the left of the 12th green.

That picture reinforces my theory that # 13 might have played from a tee to the left of # 12 green, such that, with both tees, approaches to the 7th and 11th greens at TOC could be replicated at NGLA.

TEPaul, et. al.,

From the left of # 12 green, where the red T appears, doesn't the hole look like it would play just like # 18 at GCGC ?

[George_Bahto]

About 2 years ago Bill Salinetti and I spent a lot of time discussed that little flat area to the left and just off 12-green may have been a supplemental tee, of sorts.

It is very small which probably means it was not one of CBM's "3-tees on each hole" idea.

To me that is the finest and "funnest" line of play to 13-green, especially now with the "in-green bunker" is no longer there.

I think it would be great to use when the course is mostly empty. There would be a safety factor otherwise  ..... although I'm not sure how many people hot balls in that area.

[George_Bahto]

Pat ..... will you stop altering the course !!!    

[Patrick_Mucci]

About 2 years ago Bill Salinetti and I spent a lot of time discussed that little flat area to the left and just off 12-green may have been a supplemental tee, of sorts.

It is very small which probably means it was not one of CBM's "3-tees on each hole" idea.

To me that is the finest and "funnest" line of play to 13-green, especially now with the "in-green bunker" is no longer there.

I think it would be great to use when the course is mostly empty. There would be a safety factor otherwise  ..... although I'm not sure how many people hot balls in that area.

George,

There are a number of small tees at NGLA.

Certainly # 7 isn't large and I believe some of the tees on
# 14 to the left of # 13 green are small.

What triggered my interest/theory was the removal of the small bunker and the extension of the green to the rear horseshoe shaped bunker.

There's no doubt that the hole plays better from that angle.

The green also provides a more interesting target as it's sloped high left to low right instead of being the straigt away backstop from the current tee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat ..... will you stop altering the course !!!    

Just making comments about # 11 tee, similar to the ones I made many years ago about # 5 fairway, # 10 green, # 11 green and # 13 green.

Strangely enough, all of my comments have come to fruition.

Do you think I should begin commenting on a tee between # 7 and # 11 green that could be used on holes # 8 and # 12 ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

What would you estimate the distance from the foot pad on the left of # 12 to the middle of the expanded 13th green is ?

Maybe Michael Moore can provide the yardage from the T to the center of the green.

GCGC's Eden hole was 190 yards to the center and might be slightly longer today.

The back of the right side tee is about 174 yards.

The next time I visit, I'd like to play some shots from that left side footpad.

I do know that the back of the green is heavily sloped, limitiing hole locations, but, I believe that the left front quadrant is fairly flat, which means that there would be plenty of room for hole locations closer to Hill Bunker.

What are your thoughts ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

Another thought I had was the following.

The influence of the wind from the left side tee.

With the tee on the left of # 12 green, the prevailing wind/s would tend to be more crossing to facing instead of following to crossing.

I think that element would make the hole play more interesting, especially with the hole cut next to Hill Bunker with a right to left wind.

[George_Bahto]

Pat:

from the small tee-pad back left of #12 it is:

*  150 to the front of the green

*  165 to what was the center of the green before expansion and the elimination of the internal bunker

*  181 to where the middle of the (removed) bunker was

*  194 to the furthest part of the peresent green

*  and a couple more yards before you get into the rear bunker

very cool !!

the wind factor on this lie makes it that much more interesting, yes, and a pin cut close to Hill bunker, even though it might only be 160 would be great, given the wind and this new line of play

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

Could you and Bill take a closer look at this when you visit ?

Could you let me know what you think, afterwards ?

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's my understanding that # 13 will be played from the left tee for one or more of the rounds and that that tee will also be used to add length on # 7

Great opening ceremony.

Ran into so many old friends and GCA.com participants and lirkers

Sat with Nathan Smith's mom and dad for an hour and Nathan joined us for awhile and gave my spa nice Walker Cup pin

Also sat with Neil Regan and George Bahto

JKinney was a delightful host.

What a great day.

More later

Following Nathan this morning