Multiple tees are socialistic

[Mike_Cirba]

Picking up on a point made by Tom Doak and Patrick Mucci on another thread, I have to agree that the idea that courses now routinely have 4-5, or even more tees to be an architectural and handicapping nightmare, as well as an ridiculous attempt at creating equality and fairness that borders on socialistic.

How the hell are architects supposed to "strategically" design courses when many 10-28 handicappers can hit their drive from 200-300 yards, but end up playing at 6000 yards.  Generally, these folks tend to be wild, have several "blow up" holes per round, and very shaky short games.

How does an architect place features like bunkers for these folks?

Personally, I think the Scots have it right.  One set of tees for Championship play that are perhaps used 1-2 times a year, one set for "member play"  and another forward set for seniors or ladies.  

Anything else is just a misguided attempt at the golf equivalent of distribution of wealth schemes, trying with the best of intentions to create "equal results".  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I couldn't agree more.

At a club in NJ that I'm familiar with, there is an ongoing attempt to create, new tees.

Senior tees, intermediate tees, etc.,etc..

The joke is that the proposed tees are only 5-8 yards apart.

But, there is this ridiculous need to cater to virtually every element of the membership, and in doing so the opposite result is achieved.

If there was a championship tee, intermediate tee and forward tee, the entire membership could be served, AND
IT WOULD ACCELERATE THE PROCESS OF HAVING MEMBERS PLAY FROM TEES COMMENSURATE WITH THEIR ABILITY.

It would also lower maintainance costs, and speed up play.

You get my almost unrestricted vote on this one.

[TEPaul]

I'm not so sure about multiple tees but I kinda like this socialistic "share the wealth" scheme!

I think the wealth should be distributed and shared, as long as it's Pat Mucci's wealth and not mine!

[Steve Lang]

Is a golf course architect different from any other architect?  

The old form and function issue begs for multiple tees to be provided, so why stop at three?  Do you really want to force all into a holy trinity of tees, like it or not?

I suppose this socialist arguement would be extended to saying buildings shouldn't have ramps for wheel chair types too or water fountains lower than 5 feet tall?

When was the last time you played from the Red tees Mr?

Why would an architect shrink from the problem at hand, too difficult?

[Rick Shefchik]

You can effectively have six sets of tees if you make each individual tee box 15 or 20 yards long. Vary the position of the tee markers from front to back -- or even put two on each box -- and you provide more options without building more tees.

One thing that exasperates my wife is that so many forward tees are tiny little patches of ground that get chewed up early each summer because there's so little room to move the markers up or back.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Fully agree, Mike

One clarification, in Scotland the Medal (championship) tees are used 1-3 times per week (not 1-2 times/year) for the active player, as there are that many competitions at most clubs (during the March-October period, at least).

Rick

Isn't it ironic that the tees that need the most space and get the most abuse (the forward ones) are the most poorly designed to accomodate such abuse?

[Jeff Fortson]

This is the best name of a topic that I have seen in a long time!

Growing up as a kid there were three sets of tees....

Red- Women

White- Men

Blue- Championship

Pretty simple, a set of tees for each gender and an extra set for tournaments or low handicapers.

That's the way it should be.

I hate the Super Senior Hermaphrodite Caucasian Disabled Tees.  Too many "politically correct" tees being used today.

Jeff F.

[Rick_Noyes]

I too agree that three sets are sufficient.  Golf course architects are no different from any other however, and one set must comply with ADA.

[JohnV]

I agree that many of the tees are unneccssary.  When we do course rating, we only separately rate tees that are more than 25 yards (20 for women) difference in length.    Otherwise the yardage provides the entire difference in teh rating.  Yesterday we did a course rating for a course we rated the white tees.  Three holes we rated the gold (Senior) tees and on ONE hole we rated the blue tee.  So, there were only 4 holes where there was more than 25 yards difference between the middle tees and the other two sets.  Why bother?  And this course had no real water so it wasn't like moving the tees up 15 yards allowed the older/weaker player to carry something they couldn't have carried otherwise.

As for women's tees in Europe, they can be worse than the ones here.  I remember playing Portmarnock and on one hole, the women's tee was just two tee markers placed in the middle of the mown walkway leading from the men's tees to the fairway.  The teeing ground was U-shaped and almost unusable.  My wife just cracked up when she saw it.  It certainly wasn't the only example we saw in our travels of Scotland and Ireland.

[D. Kilfara]

JohnV - you're right about ladies' tees here in Britain. There are a few red tees here at Machrihanish which are level or even behind the men's tees! And yes, that happens throughout Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland. A shame, really, as there are plenty of carries which very few ladies can actually make.

Mike - your initial observation is spot on. In my opinion, American golf really needs to adopt the British example of having one set of markers denoting the "competition tees" (medal tees) and one other set for regular play. In Britain, play from the medal tees is PROHIBITED except during competitions. I'd suggest that such an approach could work in America as well, although a reasonable alternative would be to restrict access to the medal tees at private clubs to players with a certain handicap or better (and make that handicap good and low - 6, maybe?), and to SEVERELY restrict such access at public/resort courses (3?). Having fewer tees to choose between speeds up play, and forcing lesser players to play from forward tees should speed up play dramatically and help a certain type of golfer - the type who feels peer pressure, or has the masochistic desire of his own, to play from the tips - enjoy the game dramatically more than he currently does. Penalty for being seen playing the wrong tees: immediate expulsion from the course, with no refund of your greens fee.

Is there a single reason why this sort of policy wouldn't work?

Cheers,
Darren

[Jeff Fortson]

Darren,

One word......

EGO


Jeff F.

[TEPaul]

Jeff Forston:

"Super Senior Hermaphrodite Caucasian Disabled Tees"!!!

If that term FAILS to win the phrase of the year on Golfclubatlas then I'm Rumplestilteskin!

[Tom Doak]

Sometimes I build six tees on a hole, because I think each of them has merit.  Sometimes I only build two -- even on the same course!  (See Pacific Dunes, #15 and #14.)  But I firmly believe there should only be three sets of markers, so the superintendent can spread out the wear and tear as much as he needs to.

In reality there are four sets of markers on every course, simply by moving the blue markers forward on a few holes, and then letting the scratch guys play it all the way back regardless of where the markers are.

I think the problem in the States is that every golfer feels, after shelling out $100 to play, that the course should be set up perfectly to suit HIM.  Whereas the Scots have no problem sticking you on whatever forward tee they want you to use.  I've played Muirfield a couple of times where they used the ladies' tee for the visitor markers on two or three holes.  The course overall was still plenty tough.

I just got back from playing the Renaissance Cup at Atlantic City CC on Monday.  We had our entire field (except the three women) play the back tees for better-ball match play, and it was nice to see the course was playable for everyone from there.  Of course, the back tees are only a bit over 6500 yards; that's one reason I don't like to get them at 7000.  

[D. Kilfara]

It's not as though British golfers don't have egos, either. And the average British course is certainly much shorter than the average American course, whether from the back tees or especially from the member's tees. But the system certainly seems to work over here - and that's with no provision for allowing scratch golfers to use the medal tees outwith competitive play.

Dave, what percentage of golfers fall into that "long but inconsistent" category? I don't think it's that large to begin with; it isn't necessarily a group the game needs to be catering to at the expense of everyone else's sanity anyway; and the problem is that there are many more golfers who think they belong in that group than do. ("I hit a 300-yard drive in a round once, albeit downwind/downhill/off a cart path a couple of times...do I qualify?") And if you're hitting your drives 280 but aren't better than a six handicap, isn't it reasonable to think that either a) you should be able to quickly get to be better than a six by scoring better on a shorter course, or b) no matter how long you are, you still need to improve to get to where you deserve to play from the back tees? This idea would still work, of course, if you put the cutoff point at an eight or ten handicap instead of six, albeit that little bit less effectively.

Note that I'm not saying that having multiple tee boxes on each hole is a bad thing, per se. What's bad is having 5 or 6 different sets of markers. There's no reason that the course can't be set up in such a way that the "member's tees" are placed on the back tees once or twice during a round, the front tees once or twice, and the rest staggered in between so that longer hitters do have to use their driver a few times.

Cheers,
Darren

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rick S,

What also has to be considered is the extra cost to maintain six sets of tees.

At some clubs, including Pine Tree and Boca Rio, members play a combination of tees.  Regular on one hole, championship on another.  For example, the 16th at Pine Tree from the Championship tee is 666 yards. 600 yards from the regular tee.  The championship tee at # 13 is 157 yards.  Holes # 14 and # 15 are also short from the championship tees.  Some members will play back on # 13, 14, and 15 but from the regular tees on # 16, 17 and 18 and other holes.

They play where they feel COMFORTABLE.

Not a bad idea.

At Boca Rio, it's more from the white and red tees since only two members play the championship tees.

Again, members are playing from where they feel comfortable.
A good trend.

[RJ_Daley]

While many of you cite the old courses in GB&I where there are often high winds as having limitted teeing grounds, I think that courses built where there are high winds should have greater distance variety as to where to set the blocks for the day.  When those old courses were built, there weren't the added extra problems of the distance technology to further amplify the distance capability disparity we now have.  If there are to only be three sets, then that middle set ought to be very long.  Perhaps RTJ and the trademark runway tees was the best answer to that problem.  Playing in high wind this past week certainly reinforced my view that teeing ground distance disparity and options to set the blocks accordingly is very important in the design.  I don't think it is about socialism to accomodate factors affecting distance, but about more of a capitalistic concept to address varing conditions of distance considerations to allow more people to play, thus promoting greater numbers of players on a properly regulated field of play.  More people playing, means more income to the course ownership.  That is capitalism, not socialism.  

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Dave

If you were invited to play a game of tennis at Wimbledon, would you demand that it be at Centre Court, against Pete Sampras, with the Dutchess of Kent in the Royal box?

As for me, I'd be happy to play on any court, against anybody, and just enjoy the game and soak up the atmosphere.  Now, if I got to play Sampras on Centre Court (forget--I was almost going to say s***w--the Dutchess of Kent), it would be something special.

Something special.  That's how the Scots (and other Brits and Irish, I assume) treat the "medal" tees.  It is a very good tradition.  And, they don't even think of playing the 7000+ Tiger tees--set up for Opens, at places like TOC, Troon and Muirfield.....

[Steve Lang]

Has Dave Schmidt just argued that multiple tees are a right or individual necessity and therefore not socialistic, but democratic and RJ just jumped to the capitalistic vein of reasoning that makes the most progressive of systems per their individualistic risk reward...?

Its those Scots agin...

From…http://libwww.syr.edu/digital/collections/j/JohnHumphreyNoyes,ThePutneyCommunity/chap17.htm

A communism that was free from the trammels of religion and could be multiplied within a measurable time to cover the earth was proposed by Robert Owen, called by Noyes the "father of Socialism." Born in Scotland in 1771, manager of the New Lanark Cotton Mills at the age of twenty-eight, a pioneer in the application of industrial welfare to production, Owen amassed a large fortune and won enormous prestige not only in Great Britain but throughout Europe. In 1820 he published a book describing the results of his administration at New Lanark and presenting a general scheme for the rational reconstruction of society on the basis of the idea that "man's character is formed for him by the circumstances that surround him, and that these circumstances are to a great extent under the control of human governments." He proposed to "cut the world up into villages of three hundred to two thousand souls; allot each person an area of land varying from one-half an acre to one and a half acres; place the dwellings of each village in the form of a parallelogram with common kitchens, eating apartments, schools and places of worship in the center; require every person to forswear individualism and work for the common benefit."

GIve me Liberty to play from the tips or give me a beer... I can hear the Hero's historical cry!

[THuckaby2]

Gotta say I agree with Rich here, but then again, I don't whiff it 260 like Dave does!

I know Dave knows this and will agree - but for me its a simple matter of courtesy.  Guests don't make demands of their hosts.  If the UK and Ireland clubs feel the "medal" tees are reserved for competition only, than that's it, end of story.  It's not as if those courses need more distance to beat me up anyway...

Soaking up the atmosphere and enjoying what's there is sage counsel indeed.  Well said, Mr. Painswick.

TH

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Steve Lang

My fascist brother who lives in Houston calls Scotland a "Socialist Workers Paradise" and HE IS RIGHT!  Free college tuiition, free health care, ridiculously cheap golf, decent train service, free love and large drams of Macallan for under $5.

Robert Owen's bold experiment at New Lanark is worth seeing if you visit Scotland, on your way to Arbory Brae.  Owen tried to recreate it in Indiana (New Harmony).  Maybe Barney or one of the Morrissetts or their fellow travellers who live near there can elaborate for us on what socialism means (meant?) to Hoosiers......

[Doug Siebert]

This is the best name of a topic that I have seen in a long time!

Growing up as a kid there were three sets of tees....

Red- Women

White- Men

Blue- Championship

Pretty simple, a set of tees for each gender and an extra set for tournaments or low handicapers.

That's the way it should be.

I hate the Super Senior Hermaphrodite Caucasian Disabled Tees.  Too many "politically correct" tees being used today.

Jeff F.

I think its a good thing to have some beginner/senior tees.  There are a lot of seniors out there who would never hit from the "ladies' tees", and the course calling them by color or calling them forward tees won't change their time-honored knowledge from years ago that the shortest set of tees on the course are for women.

That additional set also provides somewhere for better women players to go, since the men's tees are rarely rated for women, and the regular men's tees on many courses today are too long for all but the longest hitter amateur women (I'm ignoring Annika and her new GBB2)

Five or six sets may be excessive, but one thing I really enjoy are holes where the architect saw more good tee sites than tees that were needed and thus can give some variety in the lines the hole plays.  My home course at one time had seven different tee complexes and two greens on its signature par 3.  Now its down to four tees and two greens, but it still provides more variety in one hole that many courses exhibit on their entire collection of par 3s.

[Jeff Fortson]

Doug,

Sorry you disagree.  Once you build senior tees then you need super senior tees.  Then maybe a set of "I'm a once a year lady golfer" tees, then the wheelchair tees and the list goes on and on.  I say simplify it like it used to be.  Red, White, and Blue, or whatever colors you choose.  You can have as many tee boxes as you want but three sets of playing tees is enough.  Heck I play the Red tees at Shinnecock and NGLA all the time....I'm not ashamed!

Jeff F.

[JohnV]

I just got back from checking out a Pete/PB Dye course for a college tournament that had 6 sets of tees.  Between them and all the other information they put on the score card, there almost wasn't room to write down any numbers.  The back two sets of tees were 6795 and 6632 and most of them were just the front and back of the same pad.  The course rating for them varied by .2 and the slope by 1 point.  What a waste of time.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I agree "tee-itis" has gone way over the top. My only objection -- let's make sure the better golfer can play the "entire" course. I don't want to go to some course and then be forced to play the "baby" tees because they are the only ones available.

I can remember playing Pebble Beach the very first time many moons ago and literally the back half of all the tees was closed. If you've got the game to handle the "course" then provide the option.

Let me finish by saying what I have just mentioned applies to a very, very small situation compared to the bulk of the entire golf population.

[Dan Kelly]

On behalf of Ego:

I'm with Dave and Matt. (You agree -- don't you, guys?)

I want to play the course as it was (presumably) designed -- for players who, at least some days, know how to play golf.

Often, that's from the back tees. What good are those pretty bunkers you built if a guy like me can clear them without difficulty?

Let me decide for myself what's fun and what isn't, OK?

If I choose to play from 7,000-plus, and if the course overwhelms me and I shoot a horrible number, why is it any skin off your nose -- so long as I keep pace?

I say: Allow people to play from whichever tees they choose -- and force them to keep pace.