New Jersey Publics?.....

[Ted Kramer]

*I feel very comfortable carrying the ball 240 yards from tee.
I'm quite sure I can carry it farther than that, but at 250 or so I might start thinking.

200 gets my attention.[/color]

*I'm not sure about your water in front of the green question.

At what distance from a green does a fronting hazard begin to bother you ?

A hazard that's right up against the green is always troublesome, but, at what distance from the green, does a hazard cease being a problem ?   10 yards ?  25 Yards ?

I wonder if the ODG's placed deceptive bunkers well in front of the greens just to create doubt in the player's mind ?[/color]

*I don't know that better players don't lay up on long par 4s.


I can't recall ever seeing a better player laying up off his drive in the DZ on a long par 4[/color]

But I feel pretty confident saying that they don't try to hit shots that they aren't comfortable with during serious competition because of what the scorecard says;

That's where we disagree.
Anytime a golfer is hitting a long iron or 3-wood into a green, they can't feel that comfortable.[/color]

the "scoreboard" might get them out of their comfort zone, but not the scorecard. They hit shots that they believe they can pull off. That is one reason why that are good players.

I don't see them laying up on long par 4's, because they feel they can't pull off the required shot.  Good players usually possess good short games.[/color]

*Are you serioulsy questioning the difference between strategy in match vs medal play? There are a zillion different reasons for playing more or less aggressively during match and or medal play. I don't for one second think that you disagree with the idea that match and medal play can lead to different strategic decisions having NOTHING to do with the par designation of a hole.

I do disagree with that.

If nothing else, I've learned NOT to play the man, and to focus on playing the hole, while not ignoring the man.

It's your honor.  It's a 165 yard par 3.
How and why would you play differently in match or medal play ?

Same question on every hole you play when it's your honor, and, let's assume that your opponent outdrives you by 3 yards on every hole.  Why would you play the hole differently in match versus medal play ?[/color]

*I havn't played enough golf recently to have a valid handicap. I've been single digits 6-8 for the past number of years. I just shot +7 at Bulle Rock from the blue tees on Saturday through 17 holes. I hurt myself during the round and couldn't play the 18th . . .I was really bummed out as that is really one of my favorites.

Recently, it seems that more and more people I know have injured themselves during a round.  Most have twisted ankles and they were perfectly sober at the time.[/color]

*In terms of the fronting hazard, one of my favorite examples is the par 5, 13th at Bethpage Black. There is a bunker about ?20-30 yards? from the green. That hazard always gets me thinking.

**Pat, I think you out-argued yourself with regards to the good player and whether or not he/she lays up on a long par 4 and I agree with with you 100%.

If the good player isn't laying up on a long par 4 it is because he/she has enough confidence in their game (long game, short game, chipping, putting, etc.) to make the best number possible more times than not by playing the shot that they have chosen to play.

If that shot is a 3 wood, I agree, they might not feel that they will "hit it close". But they do feel that hitting the 3 wood gives them the best chance to score, that could very well mean that they have a ton of confidence in the pitch, chip, lob, etc. that they will be faced with if their 3 wood misses the green.

***It is my honor, I'm down 2 with 2 to play, 165 yard par 3, water right of the green, hole cut 5 paces from the right edge. I hit a drawing 7 iron that has to carry over a portion of the water hazard in the hopes of getting it close to give me a chance at birdie, which I'll probably need to continue the match. (I really can't hit a fade very well   )

***It is my honor, I'm leading a medal play event by 3 shots. It is the 17th hole and I'm looking at the same par 3. I hit an 8 iron thinking that I wont really be able to even reach the water with that club and aim in at the front left portion of the green. I'd be happy to get my ball somewhere up near the green and do my my best to 2 putt for par.

****Regarding my "injury". I hit a shot from the tee with my trusty Sonartec 17*/Fuji 904hb on the 14th hole and heard/felt a little pop in my forearm/elbow. I felt an ache in my forearm and bicep but I could still move my arm pretty well so I rubbed it a little as I walked to my ball. I hit my next shot and it hurt like hell. I played 15, 16, and 17 in a lot of pain and couldn't play 18. I iced it this weekend and took a bunch of ibuprofin. I really don't see myself going to a Dr. because I don't need to hear someone tell me to "rest it until it feels better". I'm 99.99999% sure that I don't need surgery, so I'll just put the clubs down for a few weeks and hope it feels better in about a month or so . . .

-Ted

[Ted Kramer]

I'm 99.99999% sure that I don't need surgery, so I'll just put the clubs down for a few weeks and hope it feels better in about a month or so . . .

-Ted

uh, errr, bad idea.

Good idea to find out whether or not you  have a distal biceps rupture or not. If + you do need surgery, especially if you want to powerfully supinate that arm ever again (if that's the dx) and play golf.

Do you know anyone good in the NJ/ Philly area who I can go see to find out?

-Ted

[Jim Nugent]

Ted, redan may well be right.  Just remember, though, surgeons do surgery.  Strongly urge you to get a 2nd or 4th opinion, if by some off chance surgery does get recommended to you.  

[Matt_Ward]

George B:

I'm traveling much of July -- would like to come out and seeThe Knoll sometime in early August.

Hats off to you and the folks who "get it" at The Knoll. It's always been a favorite of mine as you well know and the potential to be everything and more is there indeed.

I'm looking forward to playing it again.


Dan H:

Thanks for the Big Brother overview. Here's the facts -- I have not sported a GHIN handicap for quite some time. I do play though many times and just for your own edification I've played all the key and less than key layouts in New Jersey many times over.

Whether you agree with me or not is your right. I simply provide my take on matters of that type from having done so from actual playing experiences over a broad range of time.

A few other points -- you made the grand total of ONE PLAYING visit to Ballyowen and then proclaim just how bad the course is. Geeze Dan -- nothing like substantive homework on a course -- especially when others have played it far more extensively than you.

One other thing -- I presented a detailed HOLE-BY-HOLE analysis. Please knock yourself out and offer any compelling counter-argument beyond the one-time snapshot you've provided.

Kevin:

Try to develop a thicker skin -- you make bold statements and then when others -- like me -- disagree -- you then whine on and on about the tone that's provided.

I stated that when a course opened is irrelevant to me when I play golf in 2007. If a course has decided to stay put and not make any improvements -- or those of minimum nature -- then I don't give them some added benefit when compared to course of more recent vintage that are superior in my book.

You also did a wonderful tap dance and avoid taking any stand on the subject of Seaview v Twisted Dune. Please don't play the run and hide game and critique my comments when you fail to take a clear position on that issue. I never said the two courses were the same -- I simply said that I and others can and do rate courses -- regardless of when they opened -- based on how they play TODAY IN 2007.

Yes, Seaview was rated a short time back. I never said -- read this slowly and distinctly again -- NEVER said -- that Seaview was a poor layout -- from either course. What I did say was that Twisted Dune is the better overall course and that it's also a considerable value to play when compared to Seaview. Got it.

One other thing to make sure the record is clarified -- I don't like the idea that certain superintendents water to the degree that a number of them do. Overwatering does little for overall turf quality, provides bad pr when people face drought situations and also dIminish the nature of shotmaking as all shots are treated the same no matter how well / poorly they are played. Clearly, many superintendents are very sensitive about water usage and have done a fantastic job in taing on the elements I just mentioned.

[Ted Kramer]

George B:

I'm traveling much of July -- would like to come out and seeThe Knoll sometime in early August.

Hats off to you and the folks who "get it" at The Knoll. It's always been a favorite of mine as you well know and the potential to be everything and more is there indeed.

I'm looking forward to playing it again.


Dan H:

Thanks for the Big Brother overview. Here's the facts -- I have not sported a GHIN handicap for quite some time. I do play though many times and just for your own edification I've played all the key and less than key layouts in New Jersey many times over.

Whether you agree with me or not is your right. I simply provide my take on matters of that type from having done so from actual playing experiences over a broad range of time.

A few other points -- you made the grand total of ONE PLAYING visit to Ballyowen and then proclaim just how bad the course is. Geeze Dan -- nothing like substantive homework on a course -- especially when others have played it far more extensively than you.

One other thing -- I presented a detailed HOLE-BY-HOLE analysis. Please knock yourself out and offer any compelling counter-argument beyond the one-time snapshot you've provided.

Kevin:

Try to develop a thicker skin -- you make bold statements and then when others -- like me -- disagree -- you then whine on and on about the tone that's provided.

I stated that when a course opened is irrelevant to me when I play golf in 2007. If a course has decided to stay put and not make any improvements -- or those of minimum nature -- then I don't give them some added benefit when compared to course of more recent vintage that are superior in my book.

You also did a wonderful tap dance and avoid taking any stand on the subject of Seaview v Twisted Dune. Please don't play the run and hide game and critique my comments when you fail to take a clear position on that issue. I never said the two courses were the same -- I simply said that I and others can and do rate courses -- regardless of when they opened -- based on how they play TODAY IN 2007.

Yes, Seaview was rated a short time back. I never said -- read this slowly and distinctly again -- NEVER said -- that Seaview was a poor layout -- from either course. What I did say was that Twisted Dune is the better overall course and that it's also a considerable value to play when compared to Seaview. Got it.

One other thing to make sure the record is clarified -- I don't like the idea that certain superintendents water to the degree that a number of them do. Overwatering does little for overall turf quality, provides bad pr when people face drought situations and also dIminish the nature of shotmaking as all shots are treated the same no matter how well / poorly they are played. Clearly, many superintendents are very sensitive about water usage and have done a fantastic job in taing on the elements I just mentioned.

Yeah, but should I go to the doctor or not?
 

-Ted

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
As requested, I’ll respond just on the front nine.  You’ll notice that I gave good marks to some of the holes…

But, I’m still not excited about the place.  Most of the staffers we worked with were crabby, the carts had torn vinyl seats, the “Coors Light” stickers on the carts were tacky, and the greens need a serious de-thatching.   And the tee markers should provide a color cue that's easier to see - this first time visitor couldn't tell the color of a tee from any distance (granted, this is a very minor nit!)



But here goes – my replies are in italics.  Again, they’re just one guy’s opinion.

The 1st hole eases you into the round -- it has a nice backdrop from the tee and it provides a nice welcome to the property.
To me, this hole was very simple.  I saw no challenge here.

The 2nd is a solid short par-4 -- one of the better ones in public golf in NJ.
Another really easy hole with a pretty easy green complex.    To me, a good short par 4 should tempt you to go for the green area – I saw no benefit of this type of shot here

The 3rd is an interesting par-5 because you must deal with the fairway bunker that hugs the entire middle section when you play your 2nd shot.
True – this was a well-placed bunker

The 4th is an average par-3 -- be sure not over club.
I prefer not to have average par 3’s on a course that cost my wife and me > $200 to play

The 5th is better than average par-5 -- the H20 comes into play more often than not on the tee shot.
Agreed – I hit what I thought was a really good tee shot only to find it roll into the lateral hazard on the right.  But does a links course need internal water hazards?  I think not.

The 6th is a very demanding par-3 -- whether downwind and certainly in a headwind. The green is well contoured and the H20 first encountered at the 5th comes back into play big time.
I didn’t find the anything overly demanding other than the inability to stop the ball on the green.  A 185 yard shot to a thatchy green ended up just over in the rough area.  It was a well-hit shot, the kind that should have stuck.  I blame the thatch rather than the design.  But, like #5, I wasn’t expecting forced water carries on a course that purports to be an Irish links in North Jersey.

The 7th -- especially when played from the tips (the tee is on the other side of the road) is a bear of a hole. Usually plays into the prevailing headwind and the green is a small target -- especially so when the pin is near the front.
Gimmicky hole.  (I played blue, not the tips) – dogleg right all along the internal lake.  I just would’ve preferred no water here.  I did like the hill to the left of the green – you can play an approach shot up there and it bounds down to the green.  This feature was very links-like to me.

The 8th is a good change of pace hole -- You need to slide the tee shot from left-to-right but not too much. The green sits in a mini-depression and I've seen few putts made outside 5 feet because of the internal contours.
You’re right – it is a good green, and the fairway has pretty good bunkering at the inside of the dogleg.

The 9th returns to the clubhouse in grand fashion. I agree w R Whitten in that hole provides a Shinnecock Hills feel. The tee shot is quite testing because the fairway shuts down on overall width the deeper you go with the tee ball. The greensite is also appealignbecause it sits above the fairway and falls off to all sides.
I’ll grant you that this hole would take another visit.  I was surprised by how much room was up to the right of the green.  I felt that the angle of the approach shot was clumsy (above the feet lie to a green that required a draw), but that could have been because I put the ball in the wrong place

[kevinT]

George B:

I'm traveling much of July -- would like to come out and seeThe Knoll sometime in early August.

Hats off to you and the folks who "get it" at The Knoll. It's always been a favorite of mine as you well know and the potential to be everything and more is there indeed.

I'm looking forward to playing it again.


Dan H:

Thanks for the Big Brother overview. Here's the facts -- I have not sported a GHIN handicap for quite some time. I do play though many times and just for your own edification I've played all the key and less than key layouts in New Jersey many times over.

Whether you agree with me or not is your right. I simply provide my take on matters of that type from having done so from actual playing experiences over a broad range of time.

A few other points -- you made the grand total of ONE PLAYING visit to Ballyowen and then proclaim just how bad the course is. Geeze Dan -- nothing like substantive homework on a course -- especially when others have played it far more extensively than you.

One other thing -- I presented a detailed HOLE-BY-HOLE analysis. Please knock yourself out and offer any compelling counter-argument beyond the one-time snapshot you've provided.

Kevin:

Try to develop a thicker skin -- you make bold statements and then when others -- like me -- disagree -- you then whine on and on about the tone that's provided.

I stated that when a course opened is irrelevant to me when I play golf in 2007. If a course has decided to stay put and not make any improvements -- or those of minimum nature -- then I don't give them some added benefit when compared to course of more recent vintage that are superior in my book.

You also did a wonderful tap dance and avoid taking any stand on the subject of Seaview v Twisted Dune. Please don't play the run and hide game and critique my comments when you fail to take a clear position on that issue. I never said the two courses were the same -- I simply said that I and others can and do rate courses -- regardless of when they opened -- based on how they play TODAY IN 2007.

Yes, Seaview was rated a short time back. I never said -- read this slowly and distinctly again -- NEVER said -- that Seaview was a poor layout -- from either course. What I did say was that Twisted Dune is the better overall course and that it's also a considerable value to play when compared to Seaview. Got it.

One other thing to make sure the record is clarified -- I don't like the idea that certain superintendents water to the degree that a number of them do. Overwatering does little for overall turf quality, provides bad pr when people face drought situations and also dIminish the nature of shotmaking as all shots are treated the same no matter how well / poorly they are played. Clearly, many superintendents are very sensitive about water usage and have done a fantastic job in taing on the elements I just mentioned.

Matt,

My skin is thick as it gets.  I do however get defensive when some takes the tone with me as you have done when all I have asked is how you compare a new layout to an old layout.  When you write "got it" I feel you have elevated the forum to a level it needs not to be.  State your opinion and move on.  Don't "slam" it at someone.  No need in my book.  

Now regarding my so called tap dance about Seaview and Twisted.....being the Superintendent of the Bay Course at Seaview I feel that I should tap dance around that.....just my feeling.  

Now I never thought that you think Seaview is a poor layout, I was commenting on how YOU said it does not belong in the top with other publics in NJ.......but however you did rate in the top at one time which was 2 years ago.  So.....I guess it did belong is my point.  

Now to the touchy subject with me.  Watering of the golf course.  Matt as I ahve told you before, alot of Superintendents do not have a choice when it comes to watering.  We play a guessing game every day we come to work.  Can you predict the weather???  Can you tell me if tomorrow the humidity is going to drop like a rock to 15% or is it going to stay at 85% through the night?  We play the biggest guessing game there is.  I would love nothing more than to let the Bay Course dry out and play as firm and fast as I can.  But hey, I have guest playing and paying over $100 to see lush green grass.  Do they understand how the course should really play??? Nope!  SO if I want to feed my family, put my daughter through college and go on a vacation when my season is over........well green grass is what you have.  The same goes for others in the same boat I am in.  Sometimes the person who signs your check has the final say.  Now to the PR stand point.  Look at your water bill for your home.  Look at how many gallons of water you used and sent to the sewage treatment plant.  Where do you think that water just went you flushed?  To the lakes, rivers, streams, ocean.  Do you know how long that takes to reach our aquifer again?  A long time......a very long time.  So when a golf course pulls water from its well and distributes it along the grounds of the course how long do you think it will take to reach the aquifer again?  A lot less time than when you flushed it.  So, remember that when you flush your toilet again, or wash your clothes.  Golf courses get a bad rap for how much water we use.  But we are much more educated in water use than most people out there.  My motto with water.....once you put it down you can't take it back.  There is no wet/dry vac to suck it up.  

So in closing....all I ever wanted to know from you is how you compare the two courses.  Not debate with you but just an honest opinion.  Never asked you to rank or rate whos better but just compare.  Thanks Matt!

[Dan Herrmann]

Kevin,
Wondefuly said! Kudos!

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

I stated my opinion. I also responded to your idea (wrongful one I might add) that courses of different time periods cannot be compared / contrasted. You are the guy who threw that dimension out into the discussion. You also danced around stating which course you see as being the better of the two -- by whatever means you use to draw such conclusions.

You missed my previous point -- I play golf in 2007 -- what happened in the past may matter to you and all the other types who enjoy the historial dimension - I assess what the golf courses offer from the standpoint of here and now.

Kevin, I mentioned in previous threads where Twisted Dune sits with me when compared to the overall quality of public golf in Jersey. I see it among my personal top three courses --I'd add ACCC, Ballyowen and Pine Barrens at the top of my hit parade.

Allow me to say this AGAIN -- I never said Seaview was a poor layout -- that includes all 36 holes. What I did say, and for some strange reason you must have convenient amnesia, is that Seaview is overly priced and that the two layouts, while good, especially the sporty Bay, are no longer in the top tier public selection given the explosion of quality public layouts that have entered the Garden State scene since roughly 1987.

In regards to the ratings the Bay was as high as 14th in the 2004 state ratings. That dropped two years later -- the Pines was rated below that Bay and if memory stands -- a good bit below the other course.

Dan:

With all due respect -- what does it matter regarding the course specifically if staff people behaved the way they did? I don't doubt that likely rubbed you (and likely others) the wrong way -- but then do you take that out on the nature of what the golf course is about?

Do you think such a linkage would be fair if someone posted similar comments on Beechtree?

Dan, the nit-picking you mentioned is silly stuff -- you should be spending more time on your course assessments. I mean frankly -- did they put enough ice in your cold drink when you were present. Was there enough toilet paper when you hit the john? Please!

I don't have time at this moment to respond to your course assessment -- but trust me I will go over it and respond in no less detail.

I'll say this again -- a one-time visit is a limited enterprise and depending upon the respective person and there ability to see things beyond the obvious. More will follow.

[kevinT]

Matt,

DO YOU READ?!?!?!?  As I stated to you, "Now I never thought that you think Seaview is a poor layout, I was commenting on how YOU said it does not belong in the top with other publics in NJ.......but however you did rate in the top at one time which was 2 years ago."   PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE READ!!!!!  

YOU! YOU! Made the comment that it should not be rated in the list of the best public in NJ, and thats where I am stating YOU rated it 2 years ago in your mag. as high as 14.  So somewhere in your head yo thought that the Bay must have been pretty damn good.  Also by typing 1914.....I meant the Bay Course because if you know your HISTORY and arch.  you would know that the Pines was built in 1936.  Well, at least 9 holes of it were.  So, I think I did pick a layout sir.  

And my idea/opinion (wrongful as you may see) is MY OPINION!  And no, I dont feel you can objectively compare completly.  I think I am entitled to that opinion Matt.  So, please don't try to make me look like a fool for having an opinion that you do not agree with.  

[Dan Herrmann]

I think this thread has run its course.  In the spirit of being gentlemen, I suggest we let it rest  

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

I'll respond to your specific course comments as the other elements on this thread are nothing more than inane back-and-forth gibberish.

Lets look at your comments -- and then you can see mine in all caps for comparison purposes.

The 1st hole eases you into the round -- it has a nice backdrop from the tee and it provides a nice welcome to the property. To me, this hole was very simple.  I saw no challenge here.

DAN YOU MISSED THE BOAT ON THE STARTER HOLE. IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE AN OAKMONT-LIKE STARTING HOLE. THE FIRST AT BALLYOWEN GIVES YOU A BEGINNING HOLE THAT ALLOWS MOST PLAYERS TO EASE INTO THE ROUND WITH THE OPENING TEE SHOT. YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THE FAIRWAY BUNKER THAT TUGS THE RIGHT SIDE AND IS IN PLAY. THOSE WHO HIT A MEGA TEE SHOT CAN COME CLOSE TO THE GREEN BUT THE PUTTING SURFACE IS NOT AN EASY ONE.  

The 2nd is a solid short par-4 -- one of the better ones in public golf in NJ. Another really easy hole with a pretty easy green complex.  To me, a good short par 4 should tempt you to go for the green area – I saw no benefit of this type of shot here.

DAN -- HOLD THE PHONE PARTNER. YOU SAW "NO BENEFIT" --THEN YOU MUST NOT HAVE BEEN LOOKING TOO CLOSELY ON YOUR ONE AND ONLY TIME VISIT. THE 2ND DOES PROVIDE LONG HITTERS WITH THE OPTION IN GOING FOR THE GREEN. THE SHOT IS PURE CARRY AND THE SLIGHTEST PULL LEFT IS GONESVILLE.

THE MORE YOU BAIL OUT TO THE RIGHT THE MORE THE FAIRWAY CUTS AWAY FROM THE PLAYER. I'VE SEEN MANY PLAYERS TRY TO PLAY TO THE RIGHT ONLY TO SEE THEM ADD TO THE DEMANDS WITH THE APPROACHES -- ESPECIALLY IF ITS CUT CLOSE TO THE FAR LEFT.

The 3rd is an interesting par-5 because you must deal with the fairway bunker that hugs the entire middle section when you play your 2nd shot. True – this was a well-placed bunker.

DAN -- THANKS FOR ADMITTING MY POINT ABOUT THE BUNKER -- THE PAR-5 HOLE IS NOT BIRDIED FREQUENTLY BECAUSE OF BOTH THE BUNKER AND THAT THE PUTTING GREEN IS NOT VISIBLE FROM MANY AREAS IN THE FAIRWAY FOR ONE'S APPROACH ON THE 3RD SHOT. THE HOLE CAN BE REACHED IN TWO BUT IT TAKES A HERCULEAN DRIVE AND THEN YOU MUST NAIL THE 2ND SHOT TO AVOID THE BUNKER AND LAND ON THE CORRECT SIDE OF THE GREEN.

The 4th is an average par-3 -- be sure not over club.
I prefer not to have average par 3’s on a course that cost my wife and me > $200 to play.

DAN -- FORGIVE ME BUT ARE YOU EXPECTING SOME SORT OF ALL-STAR GATHERING OF HOLES FOR THE ENTIRE DURATION OF THE ROUND. DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE EVER PLAYED PEBBLE BEACH -- BUT THEY DON'T HAVE 18 ALL-WORLD HOLES AND THE COURSE IS STILL IN MOST PEOPLES TOP TEN LISTINGS.

THE 4TH AT BALLYOWEN IS LIKELY ONE OF THE WEAKEST DESIGNED HOLES AT THE COURSE.

The 5th is better than average par-5 -- the H20 comes into play more often than not on the tee shot. Agreed – I hit what I thought was a really good tee shot only to find it roll into the lateral hazard on the right.  But does a links course need internal water hazards?  I think not.

DAN, YOU HAVE THIS MISINFORMED IDEA BALLYOWEN IS SOME SORT OF PURE LINKS LAYOUT. THAT IS FAR FROM THE CASE. THE FACILITY SEEKS TO MODEL A NUMBER OF HOLES ON THE LINKS CONCEPT. YOU ALSO RAISE AN ISSUE ABOUT INTERNAL WATER HAZARDS AND THEREFORE A QUICK NO-NO FOR ANY LINKS LAYOUT. YOU MUST HAVE MISSED THE POND THAT EXISTS ON THE 17TH HOLE AT ROYAL COUNTY DOWN, TO NAME JUST ONE EXAMPLE.

The 6th is a very demanding par-3 -- whether downwind and certainly in a headwind. The green is well contoured and the H20 first encountered at the 5th comes back into play big time.

I didn’t find the anything overly demanding other than the inability to stop the ball on the green.  A 185 yard shot to a thatchy green ended up just over in the rough area.  It was a well-hit shot, the kind that should have stuck.  I blame the thatch rather than the design.  But, like #5, I wasn’t expecting forced water carries on a course that purports to be an Irish links in North Jersey.

DAN, THE 6TH AT BALLYOWEN IS A VERY DEMANDING PAR-3. YOU SIMPLY WANT TO BE A STUCK-IN-THE-MUD AND NOT GIVE ANY CREDIT TO ANY HOLE. I GUESS YOU WERE FRANKLY PISSED OFF THAT STAFF TREATED YOU THE WAY THEY DID, THAT THEY DIDN'T PUT ENOUGH ICE IN YOUR COLD DRINK OR THAT THERE WASN'T ENOUGH TOILET PAPER WHEN YOU WENT TO THE JOHN.

THE 6TH PLAYS VERY TOUGH -- WHETHER WITH THE PREVAILING WIND OUT OF THE SOUTH -- OR INTO A HEADWIND. THE GREEN IS LARGE ENOUGH FOR MULTIPLE GOOD PIN PLACEMENTS AND IF THE PIN IS CUT TO THE FAR LEFT OR THE FAR BACK RIGHT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A STELLAR APPROACH SHOT. DAN, YOU MISSED THE ANALYSIS ON THE 6TH IN MY MIND.

The 7th -- especially when played from the tips (the tee is on the other side of the road) is a bear of a hole. Usually plays into the prevailing headwind and the green is a small target -- especially so when the pin is near the front.
Gimmicky hole.  (I played blue, not the tips) – dogleg right all along the internal lake.  I just would’ve preferred no water here.  I did like the hill to the left of the green – you can play an approach shot up there and it bounds down to the green.  This feature was very links-like to me.

DAN, HELP ME OUT HERE -- YOU ARE MAKING AN OVERALL ASSESSMENT OF BALLYOWEN AND YOU ONLY PLAYED FROM THE BLUES -- NOT THE TIPS. HOW BOUT YOU ADD THAT POINT WHEN YOU ORIGINALLY POSTED ON THE NATURE OF THE COURSE? SURE, I CAN SAY THE SAME FOR PLENTY OF OTHER COURSES IF I PLAYED FROM THE MID TEES AND NOT THE CHAMPS.

THE 7TH IS A VERY TOUGH DRIVING HOLE. THE POND ON THE RIGHT IS WELL-PLACED AND LIKE MANY CAPE-TYPE HOLES YOU HAVE TO DECIDE AT THE TEE HOW MUCH STOMACH ONE HAS FOR RISK. THE CLOSER YOU PLAY TO THE POND THE SHORTER THE APPROACH AND THE BETTER THE ANGLE.

ONE OTHER THING -- THE GREEN IS ESPECIALLY SMALL. WHEN PLAYED INTO THE PREVAILING SUMMER SOUTH WIND THE HOLE ONLY BECOMES MORE DEMANDING.

The 8th is a good change of pace hole -- You need to slide the tee shot from left-to-right but not too much. The green sits in a mini-depression and I've seen few putts made outside 5 feet because of the internal contours.
You’re right – it is a good green, and the fairway has pretty good bunkering at the inside of the dogleg.

THERE'S BEEN SOME SPECULATION ABOUT A FUTURE TEE BOX BEING ADDED TO THE RIGHT OF THE EXISTING TEE. THE ONLY REAL WEAKNESS OF THE 8TH IS THAT THERE'S LITTLE PUNISHMENT FOR SHOTS THAT ERR TOO FAR TO THAT SIDE. I'D LIKE TO SEE THE FACILITY GROW SOME GRASS LIKE YOU SEE ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE 18TH TO KEEP PLAYERS A BIT MORE HONEST. STILL A GOOD TRANSITION HOLE BETWEEN THE 7TH AND 9TH.

The 9th returns to the clubhouse in grand fashion. I agree w R Whitten in that hole provides a Shinnecock Hills feel. The tee shot is quite testing because the fairway shuts down on overall width the deeper you go with the tee ball. The greensite is also appealignbecause it sits above the fairway and falls off to all sides.

I’ll grant you that this hole would take another visit.  I was surprised by how much room was up to the right of the green.  I felt that the angle of the approach shot was clumsy (above the feet lie to a green that required a draw), but that could have been because I put the ball in the wrong place

THE 9TH IS NOT DIFFICULT UNLESS ONE TRIES TO HIT TOO FAR DOWN THE FAIRWAY. TO THE CREDIT OF RULEWICH THE FAIRWAY BEGINS TO THROTTLE DOWN ON BOTH SIDES. THE MORE YOU TRY TO CUT THE RIGHT SIDE THE MORE POTENTIAL DANGER AWAITS.

THE GREENSITE IS ONE OF THE BEST ONES AT BALLYOWEN. IT SITS ABOVE THE FAIRWAY AND YOU NEED TO LAND THE BALL IN THE CORRECT MANNER TO HAVE A POSSIBILE BIRDIE TRY.

DAN, I THINK IF YOU PLAYED THE 9TH AGAIN YOU WOULD SEE HOW THE THREE PAR-4'S YOU PLAY TO CONCLUDE THE OUTWARD HALF ARE ALL RATHER UNIQUE AND DIFFERENT.

LET ME KNOW YOUR COMMENTS ON THE INWARD HALF AND I CAN RESPOND IN KIND.

ONE LAST THING FOR NOW -- THE PUTTING SURFACES AT BALLYOWEN ARE GENERALLY AMONG THE 3-4 BEST FOR PUBLIC GOLF IN NJ. IF THEY ARE HAVING AN ISSUE WITH TURF THEN IT'S MORE LIKELY A TEMPORARY THING AND NOT A PERMANENT ONE FROM THE MANY TIMES I HAVE PLAYED THERE.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

FYI --

I only added my comments in BOLD to highlight my thoughts versus yours. Nothing more than that.