[John_Conley]

During the Ryder Cup the Europeans made something like 91 birdies to 57.  In this event with both teams the United States players are a collective 55 under versus 38.  (Very unofficial count.)  I heard the argument that the Europeans are "better", but why don't they play like it.  Tiger, Cink, and Furyk are right at the top.  Sergio?  Way down the list.

The Europeans spanked the U.S. the last two meets because they played way better that weekend.  If they really are better I'd think they'd be able to play better almost every week even in different formats.

I don't think I'll ever hear an explanation of what is going on that explains this odd phenomenon.

[Tim Bert]

It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to say the Euros care more about the event and reach down a little deeper to get it done.

I have no doubt that the US is producing, on average, the best golfers in the world.  We just aren't producing the best golf team in the world.

If golf became a team sport, then the US squads might struggle a little more since the athletes on this side of the pond (regardless of sport) have more of the "all about me" attitude.  The NBA is a great example.  Terrell Owens and Barry Bonds are a couple good individual examples in other sports.

[Joe Hancock]

As soon as high school golf starts playing match play format instead of stroke play, then the Americans will have a chance....

Joe

[Mike_Clayton]

Tim

I'm not sure that America is producing the best golfers in the world - Tiger aside obviously.
They are producing a lot of golfers who are amongst the best golfers playing the tour in America - but in the world?
How would we ever know seeing most don't own a passport.
They play the same course every week,stay at the same hotel,eat at the same restaurant,play in front of the same fans - i.e its a very comfortable predictable existance.
They have a huge advantage playing at home every week.

'Foreigners' have grown up in the opposite environment and they are more adaptable - and the longer it goes on the better the overseas players will do.

How much of an advantage does Geoff Ogilvy have over an American counterpart because he grew up playing in the wind on the hard fast greens on the Melbourne sandbelt?

This new generation are fantastic players without any of the inferiority complex of  foreign players of previous genarations and the next two decades will see more and more overseas players at the top end of the money list in America.

And overseas players have grown up with a mentality of trying to prove Americans are not ' the best players in the world'  They can prove that most emphatically at The Ryder Cup and its a huge motivation for them
The rest of the world have had that rammed down their throats for a long time - and it was obviously true for a long time.

[John_Conley]

Mike, I think you make a lot of great points.  However, I think they are playing in the UK this week and you still see the Americans doing quite well.  Not just Woods.

[Mike_Clayton]

John.

True - they are terrific players but week in week out the balance is changing. In the 1977 Open there was one player(Tommy Horton- T9th) in the top dozen.I suspect the Americans who played well that week - Nicklaus,Watson,Trevino,Green, Crenshaw,Palmer,Floyd - played a lot more golf overseas that their counterparts do now.
Those those American players all played a deal of golf in Australia but these days its tough to get any of the better Americans to come here.

And by the look of the golf course this week it could be in Ohio. It doesn't look like it needs much adaptability - a bit like the K Club!

[Bill_McBride]

As soon as high school golf starts playing match play format instead of stroke play, then the Americans will have a chance....

Joe, I agree.  Stroke play is completely different, much more defensive.

However, when do the Euros play match play these days?

[Jordan Wall]

John,

You know why the Europeans are better in the RC?

Because they can play there 10 best, and not their best 10.
They're twosomes are their 2 best, not there best 2.
Usually, if the US does well, it is in singles, and that is because no 'team' is involved in the individual matches.

[Jim Nugent]

Mike, I disagree, at least compared to Europe.  The three top-ranked players in the world are American, not just Tiger.  Americans have dominated the majors this entire century: they have won 20 of 28.  Even leaving out Tiger victories, they have won 10 of 18 during that time.  

Top European players play the U.S. tour: they do well but not great.  Sergio, Clarke, Donald, Harrington, and Ollie have won a total of one U.S. event this year, despite playing full-time or nearly full-time.  This is not all that unusual.  Olazabal's last U.S. win came in 2002.  Clarke last won in 2003.  Harrington has won two events total on the U.S. tour.  In over five years of full-time play, Donald has won twice, and one of those was a rain-shortened event.  Despite all his potential, Sergio is 41st this year in scoring, 41st in money earnings, has no victories.  The entire European squad is 0 for everything in majors this century.

U.S. players can't win overseas?  They won 6 of 7 Open Championships of the 21st century.  Not counting Tiger's wins there, they won 3 of 4.  Europe is batting .0000 during that time, in the major event held in its own back yard.

The real mystery is why the world's three top players are a combined 14-24-5 in the last three Ryder Cups.  (14 wins, 24 losses, 5 ties.)  Why Tiger Woods is 10-13-2 lifetime Ryder Cup.

This year, for the first time ever, Europe had more depth.  Would not have mattered, had America's top players stepped up to the plate.  Instead they only won 3 1/2 points of 11.  The exact opposite of Euro's top three.  That is why America lost: its top players sub-performed.  

[ForkaB]

As soon as high school golf starts playing match play format instead of stroke play, then the Americans will have a chance....

Joe, I agree.  Stroke play is completely different, much more defensive.

However, when do the Euros play match play these days?

Bill

The Euros (at leat the UK version) grow up playing a lot of team match play.  In general, the top 8 players at each club play team matches against other local clubs, all through the year.  At my club, it's more than 10 matches/year.  The best 8 players in each county (12 in Scotland, probably 30-40 in England) play round robins with other local counties, probably another 10-12 matches/year, each of which is foursomes in the morning, singles in the afternoon.  The best 8 players in each country play several international team matches, within the UK and in Europe.

Team match play is ingrained in the character of all European golfers.  Most US players are clueless about the concept, its character, and its requirements.  IMHO, of course.

[Darren_Kilfara]

There is another possibility, of course. Statistical variation would suggest that it is entirely possible for a majority of golfers on one team and a minority of golfers on another team to be at their peak form at the same time, regardless of the competition or the motivation or the captaincy or the...etc. etc. etc.

Sometimes we look for deep causes for events when the shallow ones actually have a greater impact. I don't doubt that the Europeans are more comfortable with team golf and matchplay golf than the Americans, but how much of that comfort actually translates itself into how you swing the club or stroke the putter? Some, I'm sure, but probably not as much as we might think...Tiger, for example, doesn't win every tournament he plays in, and he occasionally has bad weeks in normal strokeplay tournaments. Rather than looking for institutional reasons as to why he performed so poorly during the Ryder Cup, we could simply write off his performance last week (and the week before, at Wentworth) to the normal fluctuation of form every golfer exepriences from week to week. Nobody seems to want to do that, though - there must be some deep underlying reason or reasons for his historically bad performance, rather than it simply being a matter of bad timing once every two years.

Cheers,
Darren

[Brian_Ewen]

""Mike, I think you make a lot of great points.  However, I think they are playing in the UK this week and you still see the Americans doing quite well.  Not just Woods.

John
It may be in the UK . but it looks and I guess plays like an American course , especially the greens .

The difference in Tiger's attitude from Wentworth / K-Club's "goofy" greens to these US style surfaces is amazing .

IMHO
Brian

[Jim Nugent]

John
It may be in the UK . but it looks and I guess plays like an American course , especially the greens .

Brian

In the Open Championship this year, Americans finished 1st, 2nd and 4th.  That was at Hoylake.

In 2004, before the last RC, Americans finished 1, 3, 5T, 7T, 9T,  11T, 14T, and two tied for 16th.  That was at Troon.  

They do fine at non-American-style courses, even though they almost never play them.  

[Mike_Clayton]

Jim,


Americans are going to always do well in majors simply because 3 of the 4 are in America - and their best players are terrific.
They may have won 20 of 28 but thirty years ago they were winning a lot more more.Only Gary Player and Tony Jacklin gave the Americans a run - but in the last 15 years there have been a lot more - Els,Goosen,Ogilvy,Campbell,Singh,Norman,Grady,Baker- Finch,Faldo -
 There was the European run at Augusta in the 80's and the last three US Opens have been won by foreigners - and three of the last 4 US Amateurs.
The Europeans have won precious little in America - they don't adapt as well as the Australians who have won seven times is year (at least)

Its just slowly changing from almost nothing to a decent number and it will continue to grow so long as the American system of producing fails to keep pace with what is happening around the world.
I think they have relied on the force of numbers for too long.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim,

Americans are going to always do well in majors simply because 3 of the 4 are in America - and their best players are terrific.
They may have won 20 of 28 but thirty years ago they were winning a lot more more.Only Gary Player and Tony Jacklin gave the Americans a run - but in the last 15 years there have been a lot more - Els,Goosen,Ogilvy,Campbell,Singh,Norman,Grady,Baker- Finch,Faldo -
 There was the European run at Augusta in the 80's and the last three US Opens have been won by foreigners - and three of the last 4 US Amateurs.
The Europeans have won precious little in America - they don't adapt as well as the Australians who have won seven times is year (at least)

Its just slowly changing from almost nothing to a decent number and it will continue to grow so long as the American system of producing fails to keep pace with what is happening around the world.
I think they have relied on the force of numbers for too long.

Mike, but Americans also do well in the Open Championship, which is not in the U.S.  Why do the Euro's so rarely win their own championship?  Why don't Australians, or Canadians, or Africans or South Americans or Asians win more?

I was mostly responding to your first few sentences, which were: "I'm not sure that America is producing the best golfers in the world - Tiger aside obviously.  They are producing a lot of golfers who are amongst the best golfers playing the tour in America - but in the world?  How would we ever know seeing most don't own a passport."

Well, Tiger aside, America has the next top 2.  Its players almost always win the Open Championship.  They usually outplay the European golfers, in head-to-head competition on the U.S. tour.  The RC is the big exception.    

I was curious to see how the U.S. did in the majors in previous decades.  They didn't dominate as much as you might think.  Here are the numbers:

Decade              U.S. wins        
1950's                31  (77.5%)      
1960's                31  (77.5%)      
1970's                33  (82.5%)      
1980's                29  (72.5%)      
1990's                21  (52.5%)      
2000-06             20  (71.4%)

During the 1990's U.S. players did worst in majors.  Yet America's RC record was still competitive.  Since 2000 American golfers have done about as well in majors as they did most other decades.  They've done even better in the Open Championship, winning all but one.  

Take Tiger alone.  Best player in the world, by far.  Most dominant player in history, IMO.  He eats up the Euro players all year, in the U.S., in Britain, anywhere in the world.  But he has a losing RC record.  So does Mickelson.  So does Furyk.

It could just be statistical chance.  I'd be interested in seeing the odds against this.      

       

[wsmorrison]

The American tour has so much money in it, I really do think that players learn to play for a paycheck rather than a win.  They are groomed to the idea that if they play well they're likely to make a great deal of money finishing in the top 10 to top 30 spots.  In Europe the winners make less money (even at the present exchange rates) and their pros make relatively similar money to top 20-30 only by finishing in the top 5.  Therefore, they have the motive and therefore mentality to win.  Outside a handful of players, we're pretty soft in America when it comes to winning.  That's why our lack of depth is so evident.  I think it reasonable that half the field at least is merely content to contend and finish top 20-30 each week.

Having a Tiger Woods on your tour is certainly a dampening factor in the better tour players that are expecting to win; it is more like hoping to win.  The overwhelming majority of tour players hope to finish reasonably high so they can get a good paycheck.

Someone on TV last night said that Tiger should pick 11 guys a few weeks before the event and have at 'em.  I think that would work.  I doubt that Phil (FIGJAM) Mickelson would make the cut and that might be good for the team as talented as he is.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I agree that the US high school/college golf training is devoid of match play competition. When did this start? I remember college golf in the 1960s and earlier was 2 or 3 schools  at  match play  except for the NCAA tournament. Now it's 10 schools getting together for a 2 or 3 day stroke play tournament.High school golf in the Philadelphia area is now 9 holes at stroke play except for district and state tournaments.

Also, there's something wrong with the US selection process when 4 of this year's team had a lower world rank than their non-playing captain. Lehman should have made himself a captain's pick.

Also, the Euros should select The Grove as a future venue.

[Adam_Messix]

The reason why the U.S. always seems to struggle in the Ryder Cup involves the first two days of competition, The Partnerships.  To me, even this year with all of the camaraderie the team had, American partnerships have never been able to feed off one another like the Europeans have.  This is particularly true with Sergio Garcia and to a lesser extent Colin Montgomerie.  Watching the Europeans' body language and how they engaged one another during play was interesting to watch and showed why they do so well in the Partnership portion of the Ryder Cup.  

The players involved in American partnerships seem to repel each other for one reason or another.  I think it is because the U.S. players are so used to getting themselves into their own little world during tournament week, Tiger Woods in particular (I am not trying to be critical of him doing this, as a matter of fact, I am amazed at how he can get into that cocoon during the week of a major championship) that when an event like the Ryder Cup comes along when teams need to gel and become cohesive, the U.S. team is forced to fight all of the habits that make them successful during regular tour play.  

As far as the last two years of Singles go, I think it is difficult to get up and "brush yourself off" after getting the tar beaten out of you for two days and come back for singles despite the fact that the U.S. did it in 1999.  

I long for the days of the Ryder Cup as it was from 1983-1999.  That was golf at it's most compelling.

[Dan_Callahan]

The notion that American athletes have more of an "all about me" attitude than do Europeans is complete bunk. European soccer leagues produce some of the most selfish prima donnas the world has ever seen.

[Mark Arata]

My theory on this is that the Americans dont respect the Euros as major championship caliber players, and therefore feel that they are in a no win situation...if they win, they are supposed to, if they lose, it is embarrissing to them.....

On the other hand, basically the same team does great in the President's cup....why? Because the World team there has Els, Singh, Wier, Goosen......multiple Major Championship winners.....and they all have the respect of Tiger and the boys.....

Back in the salad days of the Ryder Cup, the Euros had Seve, Langer, Ollie in his prime, and even Monty was a factor in some of the majors......Now the Euro team has great players, but they havent won a major yet, and I think for some reason, the US team looks down upon them in a way......

I could be wrong, but that is my theory and I am sticking to it.......

[Mark Pearce]

My theory on this is that the Americans dont respect the Euros as major championship caliber players, and therefore feel that they are in a no win situation...if they win, they are supposed to, if they lose, it is embarrissing to them.....

On the other hand, basically the same team does great in the President's cup....why? Because the World team there has Els, Singh, Wier, Goosen......multiple Major Championship winners.....and they all have the respect of Tiger and the boys.....

Back in the salad days of the Ryder Cup, the Euros had Seve, Langer, Ollie in his prime, and even Monty was a factor in some of the majors......Now the Euro team has great players, but they havent won a major yet, and I think for some reason, the US team looks down upon them in a way......

I could be wrong, but that is my theory and I am sticking to it.......

So Europe is doing so much better in the Ryder Cup than 20 years ago because we have a weaker team?  A novel theory.

[George Pazin]

I don't think Mark A. was saying the European team is weaker, I think he was saying the Americans perceive them as weaker, which in turn causes the mindset he describes. Big difference. I think he makes a good point.

Does anyone know how many birdies the respective participants have made this weekend? That might suggest whether the Americans played poorly in the RC, or the Europeans played better than normal.

I think the truth is a little bit of everything everyone says. The European team is undoubtedly much deeper than in the past. They also seem to play better as a team than as individuals. I personally can't figure out why. Same goes for the opposite performance by the American team.

One thing somewhat overlooked regarding the major performance of the Europeans is the relative youth of much of the squad. Sergio's been the youngest guy in the RC for 7 years running now, and I think it's just a matter of time before Donald, Casey, Howell, etc., start performing better in the majors. There are notable exceptions like Tiger, Jack, Seve, etc., but really most golfers don't start to excel in majors until later in their careers.

All in all, it makes for some interesting golf in the upcoming years.

If only they would play more links courses....

 

(As an aside, I also think there is a little truth to what David Toms said about the venue selections. On the Euro side, they choose venues that all the golfers are very familiar with, while on the US side, it tends to be unusual venues that each side is equally familiar with. I'm not saying that accounts for the blowouts, but I think it does help a little.)

[George Pazin]

Here's yet another theory - fast starts in match play helps cause the negative attitude of the American team.

In a 72 hole stroke play event, everyone knows the old theory of "you can't win an event on Thursday (my addition: unless your're Tiger ), but you can lose it." So everyone knows it's the long haul that matters.

But in the 18 hole matches, the European team seems to seize the early lead often, and then the mindset becomes "here we go again" on both squads.

That points to the lack of team match play experience by the American squad, imho.

[Martin Mulholland]

USA loses for two reasons:

1. They think their better.
2. Its more important to Europe.

Either be much better or start strategizing about how to beat a better team and somehow make it more important to win the Ryder cup than for your local college team, in whatever sport it plays, to be successful.

[Richard Phinney]

While the Europeans are now at least as deep as the Americans the obvious reason for the current disparity between the teams is surely Phil Mickelson, who may be the worst match play performer of all time among the world's super elite golfers.  This was true even before his recent 1-9 Ryder streak, which is unfathomable given the quality of the partners he plays with.  Trade Sergio for Phil and the teams are even.

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