Sebonack's Bold Move to Trinity Status

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger:

Where was the pin on #17 when you played it ?

Do you think -- the toughest placement is the far right behind the mound or when the pin is more exposed left and has the shorter landing area ?

[John Kirk]

Wayne,

I toured Sebonack a few days ago and noticed the tee boxes, mostly because they looked like Ballyneal's teeing areas.  I'd argue they constitute a design innovation.

Lately I've been questioning my ability to evaluate golf courses reasonably.  The attraction of a familiar course played many times over is too powerful.  Seeing a course for the first time only gives a glimpse of its potential character.  One of the great benefits of our group is the collective ability to see the course many times, which helps sort out the strategic elements a little more clearly.

With that said, I tend to see a new course in very basic terms.  Is it pretty?  Is it walkable?  Did I hit some fun shots?  Using this simple criteria, Sebonack seemed very nice, a beautiful place to play golf.  The course shifts from open areas to a lovely forest of small oaks.  The course looked very walkable, with a couple of awkward green to tee walks, like 10 to 11.  The course looks fairly difficult, but heresay tells me it is more difficult than it looks.

I think a new member of this club would quickly become enamored with his new course.

[Alex_Wyatt]

Matt, in response to your questions, and why do you always ask questions about volume?

1. Irrelevant, but if Shinny or National ever call it won't take me long to say yes!

2. No.

3. Five

In response to your question about Doak's "voice", I was referring to his critical one, not his design one.  Probably I would give Sebonack 5-6 and Tallgrass 6-7, so yes, in my opinion, its better.

I also don't think one can talk about Doak's "evolution" when we have no idea what were his ideas at Sebonack, what were Jack's ideas or whatever.  We can perhaps talk about that with respect to courses on which he is solo designer.

Happy to provide any other numerical data you require.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, I toured the course and did not play it. It was upper right the day I was there. I think either extreme on 17 would be hard hard. If you are too aggressive to the upper right position there is at best a bogie. The lower left makes for some scary putts to try and stop on the green. It is one wild fun green.

[Matt_Ward]

Alex:

With all due respect my good man you artfully tap-danced around question #1. It's not "irrelevant" because I have heard people bemoan / knock down courses in their immediate neighborhood because of envy or simply because of outright contempt. You'd be surprised to know of tales I have heard where people who wanted to joib club "A" and then were not accepted and how they quickly become opponents of what the course is about.

Clearly, if someone is a member at a nearby club they may have feelings from a self-interest standpoint.

In regards to Dismal River - you throw forward such invective as it being "Abysmal River" but you yourself have NEVER played the course. Frankly, again with all due respect, that's nothing more than heresay / conjecture on your part. I've played Dismal River and simply believe it's one of the 3-4 best Nicklaus courses I have ever played (total portfolio is roughly around 70 courses).

If you are going to spread such gossip around have the courtesy in your initial reply to say if you have played the course because it goes right to the issue of fairness / credibility.

You say you have played five (5) Doak courses -- would like to know which ones if you care to list and the comments you have on them. Maybe we can chat further on this where matters overlap.

In regards to Doak's "voice" I have to say that when someone is active in the design field the comments that spring forward have to be taken with the understanding that the person in question does have an active involvement in the field and may be writing such comments with a self interest in mind. I don't take such comments less seriously but one has to understand he does have a clear involvement in the field and his comments might be tilted accordingly.

In regards to Doak's involvement with Sebonack I have heard from various sources his contribution was significant -- especially from the overall final routing which I have already opined as being first rate on all accounts IMHO. This doesn't mean to say Jack's and Mr Pascucci's roles were not important.

Alex -- you simply pan Sebonack with the flair of a 101 college level generalist. I have taken considerable time / effort to pen some detailed accouints and you simply squirt your pen gun with nothing more than the broadest of strokes.

Final item -- Doak and his team have clearly evolved from the 11-12 courses of his I have played. The intial interst in the "look" has now moved to a more thorough and full scale effort to bring forward a complex range of strategic dimensions -- tee positions, bunkering locations and green movements, are just three quick items I can mention and can cite specifics if called upon.

I see that as a major element that elevates him clearly away from the johnny-one-note formulaic pattern that too many high profile designers often fall prey (see Rees Jones / Tom Fazio as examples of this type). It's something that Team Nicklaus understands now and has tried to do differently with some of their most efforts in the last few years.

Look forward to your detailed reply.

[Mike_Sweeney]

The key concern I have for Sebonack is that the overall firmness is maintained. I played the course a very short time after a full aeration and I don't want to use my one time visit as being some sort of definite statement on the firmness of the turf.

Matt,

Just a point of reference, a couple of us played with Tiger at National the day before your round, and it too was wet, so was a Southampton thing more than a Sebonack one.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Appreciate your take ...

I understand that and if you read my comments I did mention that Sebonack was just getting over a major aeration effort.

From what I was told the course was in peak form for their inaugural club championship and it's likely that will be the norm for most situations there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I think back right on # 17 is by far the hardest hole location.

The added length, the consequence of a miss right as well as short or long all combine to make it a ferocious par 3, especially into a wind or in a crosswind.

[Mark Hissey]

Patrick.

I agree totally. The remnants of the original dune on 17 obscure that back right corner also. The remainder of that dune now forms part of the backdrop of the new 16th green.

There had been some talk at one point of making that mound on the right much taller and longer and really obscuring the green (a pseudo dell look I suppose). I also liked the idea of making the green more of a reverse redan but that would have meant lowering the blue tees on 18. It would have make the view from the 17th green better however.

I'm still running over ideas for the 8th by the way...  

[Brad Klein]

Mark, when are you going to tell all of your Sebonack fans about the availability of that new book?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Hissey,

I"m glad we got the chance to meet at the best new golf course in America in the last 20 years  

With respect to # 8, I'd be curious to see how the hole looks from atop a 10 foot step ladder (faux dune) set in the middle of the current tee, and from the offset angles.

As we discussed, almost every new golf course goes through an initial and sometimes a perpetual process of fine tuning.
I think that has to be one of the neatest experiences in GCA and you're fortunate to be a part of it.

With respect to # 17, with the hole cut back right, the hole becomes more difficult because the margins for error are eliminated.  One must now carry the fronting dune or be faced with a very difficult recovery, and going long or right will challenge the golfer with a very difficult recovery.

My thoughts would be to hit that Nicklaus fade at the center of the green and hope if finds the putting surface.  A 30-40 foot putt seems like a welcome alternative when one views the surroundings at the 17th green.

I viewed that hole as a round wrecker.
I could see a golfer, playing well, and getting a little defensive on the last few holes.

I predict that a great number of golfers will state that they had a great round going for the first 15 holes, only to lose it on the last three holes.  It's certainly an intimidating finish.

Hopefully, we'll get to continue our discussion later this fall or next spring.

P.S.  The apple tart was good.

[Matt_Ward]

Just as an FYI -- when the new tee boxes are calculated into the total the overall yardage will be just beyond 7,300 yards.

Be curious to find out what the CR & slope ratings are when the MGA team finishes their visit.

My guess would be:

Tip tees = 74.8 / slope = 144

P.S. Pat -- I do agree with you on the rear right pin on #17.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I wonder how much of a factor the wind will be in determining CR and Slope ?

On a calm day I can see the golf course playing 3-5 shots easier than on a windy day.  And, maybe more.

From the back tees Sebonack will be a very difficult golf course, far beyond the ability of its members.

[PThomas]

given its apparent difficulty, does Sebonack wish to host any kind of tournaments someday??

[Tom Huckaby]

I wonder how much of a factor the wind will be in determining CR and Slope ?

Patrick - note that wind most definitely is accounted for in the course rating / slope process.  Note also though that what we base it on is prevailing wind in the summer time - as determined by local experts or other sources if necessary.  At very windy courses this can make for quite high course ratings and slopes - or at least a lot higher than what would exist sans any wind.  But as you can imagine, there's no way to rate it for all possible winds... nor can you rate it on how bad it can possibly get... There will be days when the rating seems low, and at courses with irratic, inconsistent wind, where it also might seem high.  Such is course rating life...

TH

[John Kirk]

I'm out the door, but at 7300 yards, I have to believe the course rating will be 76 point something.  Back in a while.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Noel,

What course are you refering to that is superior to Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes ?

I was only quoting Donald Trump's remarks to Mark and I, and a few others at dinner last night.

[Noel Freeman]

Ah, that wasnt clear from your comment Pat.. I didnt know those were The Donald's words..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ah, that wasnt clear from your comment Pat.. I didnt know those were The Donald's words..

They were, but he wasn't referencing Sebonack

[Noel Freeman]

yes, i can tell it was an inside joke but of course I'm sure the Donald would find Bedminster of Trumpangeles superior.

[Jason Blasberg]

I was only quoting Donald Trump's remarks to Mark and I, and a few others at dinner last night.

Pat:

Does that mean you dined with the Donald?  Did you eat the "best meal in New York City?"

Sorry, but I just had to ask.

Jason

[Geoffrey Childs]

yes, i can tell it was an inside joke but of course I'm sure the Donald would find Bedminster of Trumpangeles superior.

Noel

Don't you read Jersey Golfer review?  

[Matt_Ward]

Geoff:

Great line -- had me falling off the chair with laughter !

Gents:

I've played Trump National / Bedminster and it's not at the same level as Sebonack.

Sebonack is chock full of details and does provide, as I stated previously, a first rate routing that never allows for easy-to-discern predictability.

Pat:

People should not go to the back tees at most courses because they don't have the firepower to pull it off. When you have added yardage PLUS more demanding angles to overcome PLUS the added elements of wind and weather the probability for any type of success is indeed limited.

John Kirk:

Frankly, I see Shinnecock Hills being the tougher of the two layouts and, if memory serves, I do believe that the championship tee CR and slope for the US Open is 74.8 and 140. Sebonack does have added yardage but much of that is tied to the 4 par-5 holes.

If Sebonack does CR and slope higher the differences would be just beyond what I listed for Shinnecock. I still take the Open course as the more demanding of the two and that's without any doctoring of the layout.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I really don't care much about the course rating and slope of my courses one way or another, but I would make a friendly wager that Sebonack's rating will be higher than Shinnecock, which is giving up 300 yards and two shots to par.  I've got to believe the two easiest par-5's at Sebonack have a much higher scoring average than two medium par-4's at Shinnecock (once you get finished matching up the hardest par-4's at either course).

The slope rating might be lower at Sebonack, or it might not ... depends on what they value as the "average" rough at Shinnecock vs. the "average" green speed at Sebonack.

[Tom Huckaby]

The slope rating might be lower at Sebonack, or it might not ... depends on what they value as the "average" rough at Shinnecock vs. the "average" green speed at Sebonack.

Point of clarification - you likely know this already - but remember those values are given by the club, and are only changed if they seem to be obviously incorrect.  That is, the MGA will go by what each club tells them is normal summertime rough height and green speed at each course.