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tonyt

The short par 4s of Woodlands
« on: September 29, 2006, 05:16:20 AM »
I’m not the first to post on the short par 4s at Woodlands on the Melbourne sandbelt, and some photos have popped up in the past. But I thought I’d post on the collective of the three of them after having the pleasure of another game there recently. To me they comprise one wonderful hole and two good ones, and few courses anywhere with three of this length could boast a third best equal to whichever is the worst of these.

Firstly, is the previously spoken about #3 (327 yards). From the tee, the aggressive option over the corner to the right (either at the green or to a point near its front) is more prolifically bunkered than in the past, a change I’m not convinced of. My host at the club sums up my view perfectly when he says that the penalty for an out of position miss here is a treacherous shot played to the pushed up green, and so it is unnecessary to force it to be played from sand.

A safe shot can be played off the tee here leaving a perfect angle in with a long pitch, which seems to go against the rules of the less demanding tee shot to a short par 4. But the safer it is played, the longer the approach. And regardless of angle, the green is a test for many to hit from anything further than 100 yards out. Small but not overly so, and yet the bunkers and steep banks off its front, right side and rear make the thought of a miss more forbidden. The player who gets it close to the green and on the short stuff will have a pitch, and the green complex doesn’t make overly harsh demands on the short pitch, since the green will accept a proper and polite advance of good standing coming from one who is close enough that the trouble doesn’t seem to crowd in so closely.

From the tee, with the expansive zone most play to out in front, and the bunkers inside the dogleg bordering the first degree of advantage and tougher access



The inside of the superfluously bunkered dogleg. I personally think these bunkers don’t sit comfortably with the longer term great ones around here



From the centre of the fairway. The entrance looks a little wider and the trouble is set aside from central view. This shot in the height of a firm summer is a knee knocker. In professional tournaments (Woodlands is the most common host of the Victorian Open over the past 15 odd years), this is where most play from



The pitch from out of position short right, whether sanded or not, is not always easy to leave on the green let alone getting it close. Even the pros occasionally miss this green in two if they are out of position. Being in that front right bunker is among the least complicated approaches and makes a more than acceptable tee shot result



From behind the green, and showing the fall away around some of its sides. Again, coming out of winter right now it is less daunting than it will be in the hotter drier months



Later on, the following hole (#4).

tonyt

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2006, 09:06:47 AM »
#4 (274 yards) is a wonderful hole and has so many different possible outcomes, all whilst boasting few features or obvious visual hazards.

It is straight, slightly downhill, has no fronting hazards nor any of an obvious kind to its sides worth speaking of. Its allure is that the green is long from front to back but fairly narrow, and raised so that the deeper in the green you are, the steeper the run off on either side. Thus, the recovery from beside the green (even a few feet off) is terrifying, with every club from putters, woods and every type of iron in the bag adopted by the pros in tournament play. Many of these attempts don’t end up on the green.

I am kicking myself for not getting some pics from pin high. Apologies.

From the tee


The approach from the conservative tee shot. A bit of the left side’s large deflecting mound can be seen, itself hiding the steep left bank


From the right half, left half, showing some of the extent of the steepness of the bank and how the misdirected aggressive tee shot or imperfect pitch can end up a fair way from the green



One more to come later, #13.

ed_getka

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Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2006, 01:21:29 PM »
Tony,
   Thanks for the thread. Woodlands is a course I look forward to seeing. How far does one need to hit the ball to be in the optimum position on these holes? Are any of these driveable? I'm pretty sure the first hole you described isn't. :)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

tonyt

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2006, 04:11:05 PM »
Hi Ed,

The third hole is actually driveable, though not to most. And there is little benefit in trying to do so. The easiest birdie opportunity to access off the tee is over the corner bunkers which is about a 3 wood carry for the average golfer, and professionals use long irons to this point or just left of it, or they often slide a 3 wood a little further around. Most who make this play well will end up with 60-100 yards in.

On the fourth, many pros go for it who are confident with their chances from beside the green if they miss. Requiring a fairway wood or longest iron (still a driver for some, definitely for the average Joe), a shot that ends pin high is then putted, fairway wood bunted or mid iron run up the bank. Some though not as many choose to lob one. Once on the green and if not on an opposite extreme of the green to the hole, it is an easy two putt and anything inside 20 feet from anywhere to anywhere is a birdie/eagle opportunity.



#13 (322 yards) is tempting to nearly all, but accessible to very few. The hole is not a dogleg, but the hole starts almost immediately off the tee to wind a little to the right and does so just enough so that by its end, the green is set with just the front corner in view behind the bunkering and one lone and influential tree (set well right and only in play as much as it is due to players being sucked in). The hole is bunkered along the left side too, yet these bunkers on either side play different roles. The left side ones to protect the optimum line in from a conservative tee shot, and the right hand ones to bitch slap the less than very well executed attacking tee shot. The fairway is generously wide considering the array of clubs which can commonly be used off the tee, with the secret being that the green offers a free pass to nobody except those who have played the highest quality long drive to its front edge or left front. Even then, a left half pin will confound.

The view from the tee



From the centre of the fairway approximately 80-90 yards short of the centre of the fairly long green. Driver for the masses, long iron for the good players with various clubs in between for the middling players. Not often is a green as deep from front to back as this one still a challenge to approach from this angle to most hole locations. The left edge of the green only extends about halfway to the mounding at far left near the back of the seventh green, creating a bowl from which to chip or to chip through from the mounding after a carefree and not well thought out driver miss, or more commonly, after a second shot played from a disadvantaged location



From behind the green. Some of the fall away nature of the edges can be seen here, that keeps even those with short approaches on their toes

Tyler Kearns

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Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2006, 06:19:23 PM »
Tony,

The 13th at Woodlands jumped out as the besy short par-4 when I visited the course earlier this year. The right-to-left cant of the green ensured that the left hand side fairway bunkers had to be challenged off of the tee. Further, the long, narrow green presented itself nicely from that side, and makes a seemingly narrow target impossibly small if approached from the right hand side.

Truly what a short two-shotter should be, looks like a birdie on the card, but often a humbling five is made.

TK

Andrew Summerell

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Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2006, 07:12:22 PM »
Thanks for the thread, Tony. I love the short 4’s at Woodlands, & in fact, love the entire course.

The great thing about Woodlands is that, although you know the best option off the tee (on most holes) is NOT a driver, it keeps tempting & enticing. It dares you to take driver, or do something else stupid. The greens are so beautifully designed that if you leave yourself in the wrong position off the tee, you need a miracle to get it close, but it still leaves room for the miraculous.

Woodlands is one of the ‘true joys’ of the sandbelt for those who love & understand golf course architecture.

James Bennett

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Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2006, 07:40:36 PM »
Excellent thread Tony.

The degree of elevation and firmness of the greens never shows up in photos.  But it is there in spades at Woodlands.  I recall seeing the #4 green/surrounds being cut when I last visited.  I believe there is one safe way to go up and down those slopes, so I expect from a maintenance point of view #4 is just about as severe and small as you can get.  Brilliant.

The point Tyler and others make about these holes is the choices - today I might try a long iron and then a long pitch, tomorrow I'll shape a 3-wood and have a short pitch and perhaps if the wind is with me and I'm feeling aggressive I'll go for the green.  Normally what happens is that you end up in a bunker (well not on #4) or your slightly mis-executed pitch gets rejected by a testing green.  It is these qualities that makes Woodlands such a wonderful members club, as well as the tournament test that it is.

Unfortunately, I don't have any photos to add.

I'd love to see future threads on the par 5's, and on the par 3's.  Woddlands has great balance in par 3 lengthes and in half-par/3 shot par 5's.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Matt_Sullivan

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2006, 08:41:18 PM »
Given that I believe Woodlands is currently accepting members and that the rates are very reasonable (a few thousand?) Woodlands must be the best value course (architecture for $$) that you can join in Australia -- and up there on a global scale as well

Matt

Tyler Kearns

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Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2006, 11:33:24 PM »
Matt,

I absolutely agree, it is unfathomable that Woodlands is still accepting members. I would have expected a lengthy waiting list like the other gems of the 'Sandbelt', which I believe it officially is not apart of for social and political reasons  :P.

TK

Mike_Clayton

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Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2006, 11:43:22 PM »
Tyler,

In this age of 7500 yard tournament courses how would Woodlands at 6800 yards hold up in the face of modern pros?
Does the length matter for players at elite level playing a big championship?

I walked the course yesterday with someone who had not seen it for 20 years and he was astounded at how good it was.

tonyt

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2006, 08:16:28 AM »
I'd love to see future threads on the par 5's, and on the par 3's.

Apologies. This game was played as a guest on a weekend, so I wasn't going to hold up my host and go nuts like I enjoy doing with the camera. I chose the theme and just snapped these and not many others on the day.

I have just these of #5 (182y).







Mark_F

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2006, 09:32:23 PM »
Nice post Tony.

As always, I like to compare the great Woodlands with the not so great Kingston Heath.

I was due for a round at Woodlands the other week, and mused to my host during a conversation ascertaining whether the game should be on, as to why KH's short fours are so applauded, when I thought they were all merely irons to the fairway and a pitch in.

Woodlands' short fours - including the medium short 7th - all offer choice of club I think, but who really takes driver on 3 and especially 9 at KH?

Mike_Clayton

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Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2006, 06:18:15 AM »
Mark

I love the 3rd,4th and 7th at Woodlands - they are fantastic holes.
In my experience 3 offers very little choice of club off the tee - its almost always a 2 or 3 iron to within 80 meters of the green.Any other play  - i.e driver - is stupid.

 I think the 7th is the same - its occasionally 3 wood if its against the wind and an iron if its not. It is never a driver - unless you hit a driver 200 meters.

4 ironically is the hole that is most confusing because you can knock it on with a driver or a long 3 wood (260 meters) and there is no advantage in playing a tee shot to 80 meters as there is at the 3rd. The green is so difficult to pitch to from that far away.
Some days driver is the club - which is odd considering its a lot shorter (50 and 100 meters) than 3 and 7.

 At Kingston Heath's 3rd in contrast it can be played in exactly the same conditions with a 6 iron (short of the left bunker) a 2,3 or 4 iron (up alongside the bunker or just past it) or a driver into the front traps - which is the way Allenby and Norman almost always play the hole.

I think there are way more options there than the 3 holes at Woodlands - which is not to say its a better hole.

There is also a some advantage taking driver at the 9th at KH - a 80 metre pitch v a 120 metre wedge - and there is enough room to make it a legitimate shot. Very few try it but there is a more room to drive it at 9 than there is at Woodland's 7th.

The five holes we are talking about are some of the best sub- 330 metre holes in the world

John Chilver-Stainer

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Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2006, 06:41:19 AM »
Hi Aussies

I enyoyed looking at the photos. The course is very pleasing to the eye however I get the impression the green surfaces are not overly large. Is that really the case? What kind of square footage do they have?

If they’re small and sometimes raised maybe that has a significance on the scoring.

tonyt

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2006, 06:54:25 AM »
Hi Aussies

I enyoyed looking at the photos. The course is very pleasing to the eye however I get the impression the green surfaces are not overly large. Is that really the case? What kind of square footage do they have?

If they’re small and sometimes raised maybe that has a significance on the scoring.


They are smaller than average (no idea of the area), and coupled with them being pushed up or the like in many places, it certainly does affect scoring. Tour events have been held here quite happily and without extremely low scores on a course measuring 6645 yards.



Quote
I was due for a round at Woodlands the other week, and mused to my host during a conversation ascertaining whether the game should be on...

Yes I know, the three of us played on without either you or any rain to keep us company. Soft of you man :)

Kevin Pallier

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Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2006, 08:15:45 AM »
Tony

Thanks for the photos - the thing that I like about the short P4's at Woodlands is that they bring the "ground game" skills to the fore on some approaches and when one misses the narrow greens and doesn't end up in the bunkers.

They are obviously extra tough when the cross winds are blowing...and I particulary enjoy #13 and #3

Tyler Kearns

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Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2006, 03:35:06 PM »
Tyler,

In this age of 7500 yard tournament courses how would Woodlands at 6800 yards hold up in the face of modern pros?
Does the length matter for players at elite level playing a big championship?

I walked the course yesterday with someone who had not seen it for 20 years and he was astounded at how good it was.

Mike,

Woodlands was easily the happiest surprise of my trip to Australia. I would concur that taking driver off of the 3rd would be more than a little bit reckless! If the card yardage keeps people away from Woodlands, they are not qualified to judge the quality of a golf course. I think the professionals have enough to handle in the 6,645 yards of Woodlands. During the 2006 Victorian Open, while -14 won the 54 hole tournament, the overall scoring average was 72.275. Considering only those players that made the 36-hole cut, the average drops to an "embarrisingly" low 70.511.

The difficulty created by the small greens at Woodlands are accentuated by the deep bunkers and grass hollows that surround them, shedding balls further away from the hole. This feature in combination with the elevated nature of the greens makes recovery strokes more challenging when you leave no green to work with.

Any word on the renovation plan proposed to the club?

TK


tonyt

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2006, 03:50:48 PM »
Any word on the renovation plan proposed to the club?

Fiercely fought office bearers elections coming up very shortly, with the challenger taking up a popular (thankfully) ticket to shelve the masterplan.

Mark_F

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2006, 07:05:30 PM »
Mike,

Thanks for your considered analysis.

Tony:

Not fair. :o  I was working only a ten minutes drive away from Woodlands that day, and the weather was absolutely feral.
Of course, this being spring in Melbourne, I should have known better... :(
Bummer.

Mark_F

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2006, 10:22:22 PM »
Mike,

Why is a driver a bad play on the 3rd at Woodlands?

There is surely more room to miss than on KH 3rd, it just demands that someone shape the ball perfectly, which would leave a simple chip and run up to the green, wouldn't it?

Demanding a perfectly struck and shaped drive is what the 2nd at your finest creation  :) is all about after all.

Andrew Thomson

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2006, 10:09:14 AM »
Quote
Woodlands' short fours - including the medium short 7th - all offer choice of club I think, but who really takes driver on 3 and especially 9 at KH?
 Whilst I know this is about Woodlands, I'll answer this one regarding 3 at the Heath.

I recently enjoyed a game there.  In a foursome that had a scratch marker a 4 marker (perhaps melbournes finest) a 7 marker and a diminutive 11 marker, 3 of us took driver if I recall.

Mr Scratch made a 3, MFFM made a 4 and the 7 marker made a 7.

So it's certainly an option, but one that didn't pay off for me.  

James_Livingston

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2006, 05:50:35 AM »
In this age of 7500 yard tournament courses how would Woodlands at 6800 yards hold up in the face of modern pros?
Does the length matter for players at elite level playing a big championship?

I walked the course yesterday with someone who had not seen it for 20 years and he was astounded at how good it was.
Mike, is there any evidence that building longer courses has much impact on pro tournament scores?  The Woodlands template, with an array of shorter par fours demanding exacting approaches, surely must be a better approach.  Not only does it tilt some of the balance away from the long hitting professional, it also results in a course that won't overwhelm the 99.9% of average golfers.  Much better than the Moonah Links/Medinah type tournament venues of this world whose super long length not only adds nothing of interest and little resistance to scoring in the pro game, but are unplayable by the rank and file.  

Someone told me (ie, I'm not sure it is 100% true but it sounds feasible) when the greens were firm at the 2005 Vic Open the 3rd hole averaged 4.5, the 3rd hardest on the course.  Play it as a par 70 and I'd tip they wouldn't go too far under par.

And how often would you hit driver on 3 or 9 at KH?  I agree with the bloke who once said that 9 is so narrow you never miss it because it is always an iron. ;)

Mark_F

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2006, 06:26:16 AM »
And how often would you hit driver on 3 or 9 at KH?  I agree with the bloke who once said that 9 is so narrow you never miss it because it is always an iron. ;)

Clearly every time you play with Thommo and his mates, James.

Andrew Thomson

Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2006, 09:12:01 AM »
mark,

just so you know - it was me who made a 7 and I probably wouldn't take driver again...

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The short par 4s of Woodlands
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2006, 05:20:28 AM »
Why is a driver a bad play on the 3rd at Woodlands?

There is surely more room to miss than on KH 3rd, it just demands that someone shape the ball perfectly, which would leave a simple chip and run up to the green, wouldn't it?

Mark, the third at KH is a straight tee shot, which means you can work the ball either way.  You can also see exactly what you're hitting at.  By contrast, the tee shot at Woodlands with the driver is blind over trees, and must be perfectly faded otherwise the ball is dead in the bushes.  It is a stupid play in medal competition.  Furthermore, even the most perfect drive will never leave a "simple chip and run to the green".

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