Holes that are HARDER after the first play?

[Brad Swanson]

There's been plenty of discussion here about how blind holes are only blind once, and therefore assumed to be easier after the first play.  What are good examples of the converse, where you play the hole the first time and after holing out say "I'm glad I didn't miss it long/short/left right, I didn't realize how bad it was over there", and your subsequent rounds are affected by the first round revalation?

I'll nominate #11 at Shinnecock.  The fronting bunkers don't look like a picnic, but once you see how severe the drop-off is behind the green, you are more likely to take a little less club/swing a little softer the next go around.

Cheers,
Brad

[Ally Mcintosh]

i think you get plenty of these, brad... especially if you play a course more than a few times...

...on my home course, there are at least three holes where hazards on the left (out of bounds twice, trees once) encroach slowly the further you hit your tee-shot... i used to stand up and bang it down all three holes without a thought but one or two bad experiences leave you scarred...

...i guess what you're saying though, is by the time you walk off the green for the first time, you realise how tricky the hole was - something you maybe didn't consider standing on the tee?

[Aaron Katz]

#5 at Bethpage Black.  First time I played it, I just bombed a drive to the right center of the fairway and played a high draw with a four-iron into a left to right breeze.  Ball ended up in the center of the green about 15 feet from the hole, which is basically completely blind.  I figured that the green would be plenty deep and angled to accept a draw shot, which the hole seems to require from down in the fairway.

When I got up to the green, it was clear that a draw coming in over the right hand side of the green has to be struck very precisely, as the green isn't really angled to accept a draw.  It's actually pretty shallow, and that front bunker is a lot more intimidating looking once you get up there.  The last two times I played it, I just found the hole downright impossible.  

[M. Shea Sweeney]

 I will have to say the first hole at National. The first time I played it I was aware if you hit to the right side you will have a blind shot, however I was more playing for the middle of the fairway. Hit a hard Hybrid straight out that flew the fairway and was left with a completely blind shot. I had a sand wedge left, my caddie gave me a decent line. Walked up to the green and had 3 feet left for bird.

Next time I am positive I will be hitting something hard down the left side of the hole to get a good angle, and view of he flag.

[Dan Kelly]

A quick thought:

Isn't this almost the *definition* of a great hole? That all of its pitfalls (and, therefore, its charms) *aren't* apparent at first glance?

[A.G._Crockett]

A quick thought:

Isn't this almost the *definition* of a great hole? That all of its pitfalls (and, therefore, its charms) *aren't* apparent at first glance?

It is certainly one of the ways of defining greatness.  There are lots of short par 4's that just look like nothing the first time you see them.  As time passes, the respect grows.  The best hole on my home course is a 310 yd. par 4 that is a 4 iron/wedge; playoffs in tournaments begin there because somebody WILL screw up.

[Tom_Doak]

One of my favorite holes that we've done is the seventh at High Pointe, a 347-yard par four.  It's very wide open off the tee and the green is open in front, and the first time you play it, no big deal until you get on the green.  Then you see the DEEP and nasty pot bunker at the back right-center, and you will never hit the second shot as confidently again.

[Tom_Doak]

Shivas:

If you want to go THAT route, then no hole gets easier over time either.  The player just has more information and is more confident, as opposed to having more information and less confidence.

[Aaron Katz]

Glad you mentioned a short par-4, Tom.  I grew up in Tucson, and the Dell Urich municipal course's fourth hole is a great short par 4, playing at about 300 even from the tips.  It's a Biarritz green that is benched into a man-made hill, and the green is angled away from the right hander at 45*.  An extremely deep bunker fronts the lower tier of the green, and anything near that bunker funnels into it.  The bunker is a nightmare, because it is almost impossible to get a ball close when the pin is on the front tier.  The best play is to take a driver at the left side of the green and hit a very slight fade or a straight ball.  That shot must carry a fairway bunker that is about 260 yards out, and avoid permiter out of bounds left.  A slightly pulled or hooked shot will find a series of mounds that kicks the ball down toward the out of bounds.

It should be such an easy hole -- just smack a driver at the green and either two putt for birdie or make a simple up and in from just short of the green.  But I've made 6 hitting it out of bounds, I've chipped into the bunker when the pin is on the top tier, have left numerous shots in the bunker, etc., etc.  I can literally go 10 consecutive rounds without making a par on the hole.  It also serves as a great match play hole.

[Brad Swanson]

I don't know how a hole can get harder in subsequent play.  The more you know the better.  

What we're really saying when we say that a hole gets harder is that the player gets more apprehensive than he was before, or in other words, the player was more foolhardy than he should have been the first time around.  Ignorance is bliss, and all that.  But that's about the player, not the hole.

No golf hole gets harder as a result of subsequent play.  Every hole gets easier as the player's knowledge base increases, assuming we want to make the player's knowledge base a factor in the ease or difficulty of a hole.    

I'm not buying this argument.  Perception plays directly into how difficult a hole plays for each player.

CHeers,
Brad

[SL_Solow]

Shiv;  More precisely what is being posited are holes where the difficulties are not immediately apparent.  Hence ths player has unwarranted confidence on the first (few?) plays and probably strikes the ball better than he does once he learns of the pitfalls to avoid.  The attempt to avoid these pitfalls causes him to tighten up. Alternatively, sometimes on the first play one will take the safe approach and avoid trouble.  As time goes on, a player may take greater risks and find trouble that he avoided during the "feeling out" period. Often times those penalties outweigh the rewards for pulling off the riskier shot. I agree with you; knowledge should translate to better strategy and better results.  But sometimes ignorance is bliss.

[ForkaB]

Every golf hole I have ever played more than once.

[Brad Tufts]

While risking about 15 pages of argument about its merits....

#14 at Bandon Trails...

[Mark_Rowlinson]

11th and 17th at TOC

[Guy Nicholson]

Existential questions aside, #16 at Bandon Dunes. From the left side of the fairway I hit a really good pitch just past the pin. It wasn't until I got over to the ball that I realized just how close I was to going over the cliff. I don't think I would be that aggressive next time.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I'll nominate the Lake's 4th and 5th holes at Olympic.  The first time you play it, at least for me, you stand on the tee and just try and get your teeball in the fairway.  And, now each time I play these holes I start thinking about hitting a little more of draw on 4 to run it up the hill a bit, and then play more left-to-right on 5 to take the left greenside bunker out of play (the pin is invariably left front everytime I play).  Needless to say by the third green, I've completely psyched myself out of these shots and subsequently hit a snaphook into the left rough on 4 and then a power LPGA fade into the gunch on the right of five.  Head off to 6 with two double-bogeys and wonder why I don't just hit a normal teeshot.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Few of you will know it but Reddish Vale (MacKenzie) has a monster par 4 of 460+ yards with the second shot played blind over a ridge to a minuscule green set above an abyss!

[Jim_Kennedy]

A hole is a hole is a hole, it can't get harder or easier(notwithstanding playing conditions).
All you will ever learn over time is what makes it hard, what makes it easy and the hard and easy ways to play it.

[Dan Moore]

Some holes gradually just get in your head and progressively get harder the more they get in your head.  In my case these are usually holes with some sort of death penalty left or right rather than strategic nuance.  

[Mike Benham]

Any hole that you birdie the first time you play it ...

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

#11 at the Golf Course at Glen Mills.

First time I played I bombed a driver into the neck and had a flip wedge in.  Then you see how the creek pinches in and the fairway runs out and you'll never be able to play it the same way again.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

^ 11 at Glen Mills is such a hard hole. And Driver definitely is not the play. I can't believe you actually hit it in the neck!

[Mike_Cirba]

The first hole at Pine Valley is really the poster child for this concept..

From the fairway, you really can't tell how deep the green is, nor can you tell that the further back you go, the further and steeper each side falls away into Threechipland.  

You also can't tell from the fairway how narrow of a target the green actually is, because it's widest point is the wide-open, inviting front edge.

Once you get up there and experience some minor vertigo standing on the green itself and looking over the sides, you quickly realize that the smart approach shot for the average player is to play just short of the green.  

[Tom Jefferson]

In lockstep with Guy Nicholson on this one....the first time I played #16 BD, in late 1999, I hit 3 wood, sand wedge to a cup cut over the bunker left center, and drilled the 10 putt for three.  It has never been that easy since.

Never.

Fog all day today in Bandon, after a brilliant run of sun, warmth, no wind.

Tom

[Lloyd_Cole]

Every golf hole I have ever played more than once.

I'm with Rich.
I played The Ranch in Southwich, MA a couple of years ago at the end of the season as a single. I never noticed the lake to left of the first green (par 5). I thought 'this is a pretty simple opener' and knocked a 3 wood on leaving a quite short eagle putt (rare in my game), missed, but I'm sure I would have laid up if I had seen the lake.