[Lawrence Largent]

I live in Johnson City, TN and this coming weekend at Johnson City CC there having the 1st Annual AW Tillinghast Invitational. Now Johnson City was originally 9 holes of Tillie but the greens have been redesigned and repostioned in several places some bunkers have been taken out holes changed. The other nine holes was designed by an unknown. I guess my question is how can you say its a Tillinghast when its really not anymore. They even have the Tillinghast Society endorsing the Tournament in the local paper. I belong to a Ross in Kingsport which had Lafoy come in and totally tear up and redo the greens with different designs. Bunkers have been covered up greens moved some holes have been lengthed into par 5's. Everything we sell in the proshop has Donald Ross on it when its really no longer a ross except for the basic routing. I just think its poor for a club to market itself like this. Trust me if you ever played Johnson City CC and played other Tillie courses there is no trace of him left.

Lawrence

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lawrence,

What would be interesting would be to find out if the club ever had any interest in restoring AWT's work.

Is there a chronology of individuals who altered the course beyond recognition ?

[Phil_the_Author]

Lawrence,

You wrote, "I live in Johnson City, TN and this coming weekend at Johnson City CC there having the 1st Annual AW Tillinghast Invitational. Now Johnson City was originally 9 holes of Tillie..."

This is incorrect. The club originally opened as a 9 hole course in 1913. In 1919, Tillinghast was hired to redesign and the original 9 holes and to design another 9 to create a full 18-hole course. That is why the club considers itself to be a Tillinghast design.

As in many, if not most, courses from this era, changes have been made over time. The club is now very interested in their Tillinghast heritage and, as Pat Mucci asked about, is greatly desirous to learn more about it and possibly look to restoring what they can. How much of Tilly's work is left I can't speak to, never having been to the club.

You also stated that, "They even have the Tillinghast Society endorsing the Tournament in the local paper..."

As the spokesperson for the Tillinghast association that Joe Avento of the Johnson City Press interviewed for his article(s) about the tournament, I would love to see the finished product. We spoke on the phone for nearly 2 hours about Tilly, the club, the tournament, golf in general and his own passion for the game and its architecture.

He asked me how the Tillinghast Association viewed the Johnson City Country Club's use of the Tillinghast name and decision to host a tournament of this type that they were hoping to see grow from local to regional in importance.

I told him that we would encourage them to grab onto their heritage and learn as much about their history as they could. To appreciate that Tilly is among the rare few of golf's architects who might be considered the greatest and for that reason alone makes their course something special.

I said that the club should look to restoring as much of Tilly's original design as they could and that the tournament might actually motivate and encourage this to happen.

That is why I also said that as an organization, the Tillinghast Association would offer them as much help as we might be able to give in helping them to discover and uncover the art of Tilly.

Lawrence, everyone who knows me would tell you that a 2 hour conversation about Tillinghast would involve me speaking for about one hour and 59 minutes! I would not be surprised if some of the quotes he migt have used were compilations or even interpretations of long-winded answers.

I do know that I hung up on my conversation convinced that Joe Avento is a man with a real passion for the history of the game, the importance of golf course architecture and wanting to pass both along to his very lucky and talented 10 year-old son who can't play it enough.

I hope this helps answer some of the questions you had.

[Tom_Doak]

Lawrence:

You call it "misrepresenting," they call it "marketing".  Welcome to the Big World of golf.

[T_MacWood]

I'm not sure it is helpful to anyone for a club to misrepresent the designer of their current course. Would Johnson City benefit more if the Tilly Society told them, yes at one time you had a Tilly course but this is what happened and we consider his design NLE. If you are interested in restoring his work we'll help you as much as we can, including re-evaluating our NLE designation. The club must then determine if the golf course was ever any good and is worth restoring....from the sounds of it any change (including restoriation) would be a positive step for this course.

[wsmorrison]

Sewel's Point (formerly Norfolk CC) is a Flynn yet they have a photo of Ross in the clubhouse and are part of the Ross Society.  NCC had, at one time 2 courses and one may have been Ross.  The course that exists today is the Flynn course and I've proved it to the club via photographs and drawings.  They have Ross on the scorecard and on the wall and market the course as such.  They pretty much said they won't change the attribution, it has been marketed as Ross and hardly anybody down there knows of Flynn.

Here in the land of Flynn (Philadelphia) there is a Flynn Cup at a course that is not a Flynn design (nor is there any proof that Flynn did anything there at all--though an educated guess would say he may have done some construction and maybe a little redesign work).  This course is Philmont CC's North Course.  They would rather believe no evidence that Flynn designed the North rather than some compelling evidence that shows it was Willie Park, Jr..  Perhpas if they gave some thought to the position of Park in the pantheon of golf architects, they might not be so stubborn.

The Flynn Cup is a yearly tournament of 12 players from each of 9 Golf Association of Philadelphia clubs and this year 10 clubs.  They don't allow other clubs from the district to participate nor national clubs that sought to participate (stubborn).

So there is now a Flynn Invitational with a core group of clubs and each year several clubs rotate in and out.  This year the tournament is at Philadelphia Country Club with Kittansett, Cherry Hills, Cascades, Indian Creek, Lancaster, Merion, Glen View, TCC of Pepper Pike and the CC of Virginia are participating.  While PCC and Lancaster participate, imagine having a tournament and not considering inviting other such clubs.

Jim Sullivan, Jr. had a team from Huntingdon Valley, but Jim is playing in something called the Crump Cup at a course called Pine Valley and won't be able to make it.  Hopefully we'll see him, Jamie Slonis and Chet Walsh in the championship matches on Sunday.

[A.G._Crockett]

Lawrence,

You wrote, "I live in Johnson City, TN and this coming weekend at Johnson City CC there having the 1st Annual AW Tillinghast Invitational. Now Johnson City was originally 9 holes of Tillie..."

This is incorrect. The club originally opened as a 9 hole course in 1913. In 1919, Tillinghast was hired to redesign and the original 9 holes and to design another 9 to create a full 18-hole course. That is why the club considers itself to be a Tillinghast design.

As in many, if not most, courses from this era, changes have been made over time. The club is now very interested in their Tillinghast heritage and, as Pat Mucci asked about, is greatly desirous to learn more about it and possibly look to restoring what they can. How much of Tilly's work is left I can't speak to, never having been to the club.

You also stated that, "They even have the Tillinghast Society endorsing the Tournament in the local paper..."

As the spokesperson for the Tillinghast association that Joe Avento of the Johnson City Press interviewed for his article(s) about the tournament, I would love to see the finished product. We spoke on the phone for nearly 2 hours about Tilly, the club, the tournament, golf in general and his own passion for the game and its architecture.

He asked me how the Tillinghast Association viewed the Johnson City Country Club's use of the Tillinghast name and decision to host a tournament of this type that they were hoping to see grow from local to regional in importance.

I told him that we would encourage them to grab onto their heritage and learn as much about their history as they could. To appreciate that Tilly is among the rare few of golf's architects who might be considered the greatest and for that reason alone makes their course something special.

I said that the club should look to restoring as much of Tilly's original design as they could and that the tournament might actually motivate and encourage this to happen.

That is why I also said that as an organization, the Tillinghast Association would offer them as much help as we might be able to give in helping them to discover and uncover the art of Tilly.

Lawrence, everyone who knows me would tell you that a 2 hour conversation about Tillinghast would involve me speaking for about one hour and 59 minutes! I would not be surprised if some of the quotes he migt have used were compilations or even interpretations of long-winded answers.

I do know that I hung up on my conversation convinced that Joe Avento is a man with a real passion for the history of the game, the importance of golf course architecture and wanting to pass both along to his very lucky and talented 10 year-old son who can't play it enough.

I hope this helps answer some of the questions you had.

This is a very good post; thanks for taking the time to write it.

I'm curious if you know what work, and by whom, has been done to the course since the 1919 work by AWT?  Do YOU have any sense of how much of AWT is left there, understanding that you have never seen the place?

[Phil_the_Author]

A.G. to answer your 2 questions "I'm curious if you know what work, and by whom, has been done to the course since the 1919 work by AWT?  Do YOU have any sense of how much of AWT is left there, understanding that you have never seen the place?" as succinctly as possible -

No & No.  

I have been in contact with them now & am hoping to visit next month. I'll let you know then.

Tom Mac, you mentioned, " Would Johnson City benefit more if the Tilly Society told them, yes at one time you had a Tilly course but this is what happened and we consider his design NLE. If you are interested in restoring his work we'll help you as much as we can, including re-evaluating our NLE designation..."

Making a judgement as to the validity of a golf club's claim in their having a golf course designed by Tilly or not is not the purview of the Tillinghast Association or any other. We have not been asked to render an opinion in this matter and especially since the club believes that it has a course that was substantially designed by Tilly and maintains that it is their goal to protect and maintain it as such, for us to declare it as "NLE" or No Longer in Existence would be completely improper and counterproductive.

[T_MacWood]

Phil
If there is no Tillinghast remaining at Johnson City, why would informing the club of that fact be improper and counterproductive?

What is in the purview of the Tilly Assoc?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom, you asked, "If there is no Tillinghast remaining at Johnson City, why would informing the club of that fact be improper and counterproductive?" and also "What is in the purview of the Tilly Assoc?"

First of all, who can verify at this moment that there "is no Tillinghast remaining at Johnson City?" Since the Association has not been asked to send someone to the club to ascertain this, how can myself or another REPRESENTATIVE of the Association render judgement?

Since no one has been there for this purpose, "informing the club of that fact [Tilly NLE]" would be improper and against the purview of the Association.

"What is in the purview of the Tilly Assoc?"

The mission statement of the Association answers that quite well. It states:

"To share with fellow golfers A.W. Tillinghast's historical perspective and vision on Golf, the greatest game. The Tillinghast Association was founded in 1998. It's primary goals are to share the accumulated research and knowledge on A.W. Tillinghast - his fascinating life, his remarkable golf courses, his charismatic and humosous writings, and his foundation principals to Modern Golf Course design and construction."

This is as exactly found on the opening page of the Tillinghast Association web-site, www.tillinghast.net.

In the past, the Association has been asked to "certify" that a course is a "genuine Tillinghast" and where we certainly will provide any & all aid in research to determine the answer to this question, an "official" declaration of this nature is not something that is ever given.

Doing so is akin to someone attributing that a painting was the work of a particular artist. Just as in art, a Da Vinci is worth far more than a Young, so to with golf courses. A Tillinghast is far more valuable than a Young.

I am aware of one course that advertises on it's website that the Tillinghast Association has "certified" that it's course is a pure Tillinghast. They have a copy of the Association membership document displayed as proof of this.

A membership in the Association is not a "course certification." That said, I don't think that it would be proper to mention the name of the course in this discussion. I can say that it is definitely an original Tillinghast design and that the membership were convinced that the course had been substantially redesigned by another architect in the 50's.

In doing research, including at the club and within their own archives, it became apparent that the "redesign" was drawn (they have the blueprints) but nothing was ever done. There is a letter from the architect refusing to arrange for or oversee any of his proposed work until he got paid. He never was and the course remained as it was and as Tilly designed it.

In the late 70's, the Green Committee decided that the greenside bunkers were "far too difficult" for the members and so they rebuilt with new bunkers further away from the greens.

They are now re-doing all of the bunkers that were changed and are restoring them to Tilly's original design.



 

[T_MacWood]

The mission statement of the Association answers that quite well. It states:

"To share with fellow golfers A.W. Tillinghast's historical perspective and vision on Golf, the greatest game. The Tillinghast Association was founded in 1998. It's primary goals are to share the accumulated research and knowledge on A.W. Tillinghast - his fascinating life, his remarkable golf courses, his charismatic and humosous writings, and his foundation principals to Modern Golf Course design and construction."

Phil
I'm confused...the Tilly association will send someone (if requested) to ascertain what is left of Tilly, if anything, but making a judgement as to the validity of a golf club's claim in their having a golf course designed by Tilly or not is not the purview of the Tillinghast Association. We are not talking about giving an official stamp or ceritfication, we are simply talking about informing a club if their course has little or no Tilly left. IMO that is the proper thing to do.

I would presume that determining what is and what isn't a Tilly course would fall under 'share the accumulated research and knowledge on A.W. Tillinghast'. I would think the association would be interested in educating the public what is in fact the great man's work and what is not (and correcting the record when his work is misrepresented)...wouldn't it be improper and counterproductive to highlight courses that have no Tilly remaining?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom, you stated, "Phil I'm confused..."

Now which one of us could resist this line?  

You continued, "the Tilly association will send someone (if requested) to ascertain what is left of Tilly, if anything..." Yes, we will provide, as I said in my previous answer, "where we certainly will provide any & all aid in research to determine the answer to this question, an "official" declaration of this nature is not something that is ever given."

That is pretty clear to me. It also answers your ascertion that, "but making a judgement as to the validity of a golf club's claim in their having a golf course designed by Tilly or not is not the purview of the Tillinghast Association."
We, as an organization, are not empowered to render "a judgement" especially as to the validity of a golf club's claim.

Now in the past six months I have been asked to help nearly a dozen courses with research questions. They range from a course that is Tilly top-to-bottom and has hosted national championships to a club that was built in the 50's and has just discovered that a good portion of their course was built on the site of where a Tilly course once existed. They would like to see if anything of Tilly had "transferred" it's way unwittingly onto their course and if they might be able to "discover" and re-create some of it.

What all of these courses had in common was an intense desire to find what Tilly did on their course(s) and to preserve and/or bring it back.

You continued, "We are not talking about giving an official stamp or ceritfication, we are simply talking about informing a club if their course has little or no Tilly left. IMO that is the proper thing to do."

Franmkly speaking, Tom, you know more than enough to realize that anything stated by an Association such as ours will be viewed as "an official stamp or certification" regardless of how well worded that it represents an only an opinion. That is why statements of any kind must be given carefully and judiciously and ONLY after SOMEONE HAS VISITED THE COURSE!

Sorry for all the capitals, but I did state that, "Since no one has been there for this purpose, "informing the club of that fact [Tilly NLE]" would be improper and against the purview of the Association."

Again, neither myself or anyone else from the organization has been to the course to examine, do reasearch, etc... So for that reason alone, "informing a club if their course has little or no Tilly left. IMO that is the proper thing to do..." would be most inapproppriate and wrong to do in this case.
 
You stated, "I would presume that determining what is and what isn't a Tilly course would fall under 'share the accumulated research and knowledge on A.W. Tillinghast'. I would think the association would be interested in educating the public what is in fact the great man's work and what is not (and correcting the record when his work is misrepresented)..."

You are correct in this, but again, the ASSOCIATION shouldn't just walk into a club and give a determination of "what is and what isn't a Tilly course..." Just like any other organization, we must first be asked to do so and then we can only render an opinion and not a judgement.

Here is an example that you should appreciate. Sometime in the not to distant past, you & Tom Paul engaged in a runninmg debate about one or more of the greens at the Garden City GC and the large mounds that were around and on a few of them and whether they should be put back and restored.

I found the debate very interesting and yet I couldn't visualize the reality without photos since I have never seen the course in person or any of the photos in the archives. I came across a photograph the other day while doing research on something else and there is a green with what looks like an elephant buried along a back portion. It now enabled me to visualize what the both of you were discussing and yet, based upon that photograph alone, I thought that both of you needed refining in what you judged the situation to be.

Was I correct in my thinking? Probably not as I only saw one picture. If you two were having this discussion and called in the Tilly Association to "help determine" what was what, how could we be expected to with very little to go on.

No, as I wrote earlier, we will gladly provide whatever aid and help in research as we can to any Tilly club. WE just won't give them an official determination.

That doesn't preclude from someone giving a strong personal opinion. What is important is that it be understood that it is opinion.

[Lawrence Largent]

I do know for a fact that some holes no longer exist. A friend of mine and a former member confirmed this today. We were talking and he said that alot of the greens before they were redone reminded him of the greens at Winged Foot. I will agree that Mr. Advento is a very nice man, but unfortunately the has been misled along with alot of other people. I'm not sure if the membership really knows what a real Tillinghast course looks like. I along with alot of other people would like to see this course along with the course I belong to restore there great features. Sadly though along with alot of other areas the clubs are ran so poorly that financially this is not going to happen. Mr. Young if you or anyone else from the Society come down please let me know. I would love to tour the property with you.


Lawrence

[Lawrence Largent]

Mr. Mucci

I'll look through my History of Tennessee Golf book tonight and try to find out the names. I'm certain that they name one or two.

Lawrence

[wsmorrison]

I would think an architect society could and should make their own determinations, solicited or not if they want the record straight.  Do Tillinghas drawings exist for the course?  Are there early photographs to compare to drawings or modern aerials to determine how much is original?

I wrote a course evolution report for every course Flynn worked on, almost all of which are current with the present course design.  I have been to 38 of the 42 original designs that still exist and have studied the other 4 with a great deal of effort.  of the 20 redesigns, I've been to 18 of them.  I've been to both of Flynn's construction efforts.  I don't see the need to wait until asked.  Why shouldn't the effort be part of the society in any case?  

I guess we should start a Flynn Society.  Most of the work is already complete  

[michael j fay]

Laurence:

This is not uncommon. At least AWT trod the ground at Johnson City, TN and built a golf course there.

A couple of courses have marketed themselves as Ross courses for years. I have asked them repeatedly for any kind of prooof and in one case we know the name of the Architect, yet they insist on billing thmselves as Ross courses.

We list a number of Ross courses that do not exist at all. It is a means by which we attempt to keep the history straight.
DuPont Country Club was built by Ross around 1920-2 and I have an aerial of both the old course and the new testing facility that replaced the course in the late 40's. To see the Tate Springs Golf Club you have to scuba gear in that it became part of the bottom of a lake/reservior for the TVA.

The list of Ross courses continues to grow and I have seen plans to three or four others that Ross drew, that we are pretty sure were built but we can find nothing in the ground. In 1924 he built a course for a fellow in Southern Pines by the name of James Barber. I have seen the drawings and newspaper articles in the local press about tournament play at the course but cannot find the site or any traces in the area I think is the site.

Don't be too disturbed that the course is being misrepresented. Any affiliation with AWT is worth a mention.

[T_MacWood]

Again, neither myself or anyone else from the organization has been to the course to examine, do reasearch, etc... So for that reason alone, "informing a club if their course has little or no Tilly left. IMO that is the proper thing to do..." would be most inapproppriate and wrong to do in this case.
 

Phil
If you haven't examined the course and done the research, then why is the Tilly organization listing it as a Tilly design and why are you endorsing the tournament and in effect promoting this course as Tillinghast's? This goes back to the original point of this thread and misrepresentation.

I commend your judicious and careful approach, but have you looked at the Tilly Assoc's site under Tillie's courses: Inverness, Medinah, Canterbury, Oakland Hills, Pine Valley and Hollywood.

I would be dubious of including any course on Tilly's PGA/Depression tour when he was involved in a dedicated bunker removal program. IMO those recommendations should be segragated from his original designs and legitimate redesigns.

[T_MacWood]

Michael
Where can we find an accurate Ross list?

[michael j fay]

Tom:

The most accurate is the one on our website. A number of people have worked on the list for a good number of yeras.

It was created by our late Historian W. Pete Jones and has been honed by myself and a few others since his death. There are a number of courses that are in the grey area, mostly those where the question of whether it was done wholly by an associate (while in the employ of Ross).

The vast majority of the list is certifiably accurate but I am sure that there are some courses inaccuratly listed and I feel there are probably ten or so courses missing from the list. I suppose you can say that the list is done on a serious best efforts basis.

[T_MacWood]

Michael
Ross had nothing to do with Zanesville CC.

[Phil_the_Author]

Laurence,

Check your messages...

Tom, you asked several questions. The first was, "Phil, If you haven't examined the course and done the research, then why is the Tilly organization listing it as a Tilly design..."

Tom, did you miss what was posted earlier? "The club originally opened as a 9 hole course in 1913. In 1919, Tillinghast was hired to redesign and the original 9 holes and to design another 9 to create a full 18-hole course." That is why it is listed on the Tillinghast website as one of his designs and renovations.

You further stated that, "I would be dubious of including any course on Tilly's PGA/Depression tour when he was involved in a dedicated bunker removal program. IMO those recommendations should be segragated from his original designs and legitimate redesigns."

This statement appears to imply that you believe his work at Johnson City to have been done during the 1935-37 era. It wasn't and I poted this info several times already in this thread. Also, your opinion of what he did during the tour being "a dedicated bunker removal program..." could nopt be further from the truth. There is a current biography of Tillinghast available that has a day-by-day description of every course he visited and every recommendation he made. Bunker removals, though many, were not th focus nor were did they represent anything close to a majority of the work. This interpretation of what he did needs correcting.  

You also asked, "and why are you endorsing the tournament and in effect promoting this course as Tillinghast's?"

Again, we did not endorse this tournament. That point was raised in the original post and I answered it as follows. "As the spokesperson for the Tillinghast association that Joe Avento of the Johnson City Press interviewed for his article(s) about the tournament, I would love to see the finished product. We spoke on the phone for nearly 2 hours about Tilly, the club, the tournament, golf in general and his own passion for the game and its architecture.
   "He asked me how the Tillinghast Association viewed the Johnson City Country Club's use of the Tillinghast name and decision to host a tournament of this type that they were hoping to see grow from local to regional in importance.
   "I told him that we would encourage them to grab onto their heritage and learn as much about their history as they could. To appreciate that Tilly is among the rare few of golf's architects who might be considered the greatest and for that reason alone makes their course something special.
   "I said that the club should look to restoring as much of Tilly's original design as they could and that the tournament might actually motivate and encourage this to happen.
   "That is why I also said that as an organization, the Tillinghast Association would offer them as much help as we might be able to give in helping them to discover and uncover the art of Tilly."

Neither I nor the Tillinghast Association "endorsed the tournament" as you again staed despite my denial of it earlier.

Back to the point you earlier mentioned. "I would be dubious of including any course on Tilly's PGA/Depression tour when he was involved in a dedicated bunker removal program. IMO those recommendations should be segragated from his original designs and legitimate redesigns."

When the list produced by the Association a number of years ago was first proposed and put on-site, it was a best first effort. Since then there have been a number of remarkable finds and found information that shed light on many dates and courses.

We will be updating this information shortly as the site is being overhauled. We are about to open the first portion of a Tillinghast Virtual Archive on it which will allow anyone interested in learning about his work the ability to read all of his writings and the letters and reports he sent to the PGA during his course conultation tour.

We will be following this up with a information about every one of his original designs. This will include as many photos (then & now) illustrating the work that tilly did and the course evolution. Also, there will be as exhaustive an architectural history of each course as can be done.

Wayne, no, unlike Flynn, there are very few drawings or sketches of Tilly out there. All of his personal copies and records, documents and writings, were destroyed back in the 1950s during a fire at his son-in-law's in Minnesota where they were being stored. It was a terrible loss for golf history and historians.

And most definitely yes, you & Tom should start a Flynn Society. His work and person is more than deserving of a group dedicated to studying and preserving his work.

[Mike_Young]

Marketing is an amazing thing......
how many dead guy groups do we have around now?  Some of the people in these groups are sincere in their efforts but.....they are being used by the many clubs that seek credibility in order to promote their club as a "famous dead guy course".....one group at our club thought they need permission from DRS in order to place a statue of him on the property.
You know the old saying" if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it does it make a noise"  well  " if a course is a Ross course and no one knows it( but they enjoy it) is  it better when they obtain confirmation that he was there???
If Misrepresentation was not something that golf courses went after you would not have Pro golfers acting as consultants, or Signature architects having different levels of involvement where the same last name can be used on a project...it allows the client the ability to misrepresent while not misrepresenting.....
Misrepresentation just happens to be a fine line
400 courses in a lifetime with some just a one day visit....is that a misrepresentation????Today it would be.  JMO

[T_MacWood]

Phil
Did Johnson City follow through on Tilly's design and what occured at JC between 1919 and today?

No not JC on the PGA tour, but any course listed from 1936 to 1937 on the Tillie list is dubious. Speaking of judicious and careful what did Tilly do at Hollywood and Oakland Hills?

You didn't endorse the tournament? You explained at the beginning of this thread why you weren't concerned with courses misrepresenting the source of their present architecture.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You asked, “Did Johnson City follow through on Tilly's design and what occured at JC between 1919 and today?”

To answer these 2 questions succinctly, Yes & I Don’t Know. For details on these answers please refer to the several times I have already explained this on the thread.

I am glad that you cleared up what I misunderstood regarding your comment about Tilly’s PGA Tour, yet I must disagree with your opinion that, “but any course listed from 1936 to 1937 on the Tillie list is dubious.” What should prevent the Tillinghast Association chose to list courses that he visited during his tour from 8/1935 to 8/1937on their website as part of his body of work?

As an example of what I mean, are the 2 courses you ask about. “Speaking of judicious and careful what did Tilly do at Hollywood and Oakland Hills?” They are listed on the website with the designation “E” after their names. As the legend at the top of the page states, this stands for a course examination.

He first visited the Hollywood CC in Hollywood Ca. on 2/18/1936. As a result of his Complete Examination, he recommended a new 15th green, to remodel the 3rd, 6th, 9th & 16th greens, as well as the 11th & 17th holes.

On 5/26/1936, at the end of his report from Detroit, he stated that, “Here was one illustration, which gave me unusual satisfaction. It was given me by “Les” Madison, whose course at Hollywood, California, I examined this past winter. He told me that every suggestion I had made concerning new arrangements of greens and recontouring was well under way. Not only had the present members indicated their approval but a number of new members had associated themselves with the club. I had recommended that they call in a local course builder, William Bell, to work out my instructions, which he was doing to the letter and with great sympathetic understanding. And what is more, Bell asserted that the visit of the P.G.A. course consultant to California had stimulated his work to a very marked degree. This is highly interesting and significant.”

He returned for a second visit a year later. On 2/19/1937 he wrote in his report that, “Just over a year ago to the day I made examination of the course at the Hollywood Golf Club… I inspected the course to check the work already done and to make additional recommendations… I was gratified to find that many of the recommendations, which I had made previously, had been carried through and that each had proved entirely satisfactory. The 6th green had been corrected; the new 7th teeing ground is now about completed and I OK’ed it; the D.H’s on both 9 and 10 have been eliminated; the new 11th teeing-ground is in use; the return to the original 12th teeing-ground has improved that hole; the 15th green has been built as directed; the new arrangement at the 16th has been observed completely and a fine hole results… In addition I recommended the eventual rebuilding of the 2nd green to remove objectionable terraced levels and also the grassing of the big sand pit on the left; a lowering of the level of the 4th teeing-ground as well… The turf on both fairway and putting-greens shows decided improvement and the advice concerning the spiking of the previously tight greens with sharp sand in the compostings, has proven most helpful.”

Now, what in that sound “dubious?” Too, the association only gave Tilly credit for an Examination despite the numerous recommendations made that were carried out because they were carried out by another architect.

As far as Oakland Hills is concerned, he first visited it on 5/26/1936, conducting a complete examination of the course with Al Watrous at his side. He returned for a second examination four months later on 9/30/1936 at, “The request of Al Watrous, president of the Michigan Section of the P.G.A… [He is accompanied by Waltrous, his son and various members of the club’s executive committee] This is a great course… already the committee has lengthened five holes… however I did not concur with them that it [new tee] had helped the fourth. The fourteenth is the one really weak hole and I gave them a suggestion for a new fairway, extending over a more interesting break of ground to the left of the present and a new green site… I pointed out a number of D.H. sand pits, notably on the first, sixth, ninth and tenth and they agreed with me that they best be eliminated…”

Again, how is the Tillinghast Association’s  listing of this course with the designation of Examination dubious?

Finally, you questioned, and then stated something as fact that is entirely incorrect. “You didn't endorse the tournament? You explained at the beginning of this thread why you weren't concerned with courses misrepresenting the source of their present architecture.”

I never stated anywhere on this thread or elsewhere that I wasn’t “concerned with courses misrepresenting the source of their present architecture.” Not a single time.

[James Bennett]

I guess we should start a Flynn Society.  Most of the work is already complete  

Wayne.

is that the same 'we' that the Commonwealth see used when the Queen speaks, ie the Royal 'we' (a singular noun).  

Given the Flynn Cup that you spoke about above, I think most of the necessary work to set up such a group is in place.

James B

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