What is the 100th best Ross course in the country..

[John Kavanaugh]

The 200th...the 300th and the worst.  Please just name those four or any single one and a brief reason if you want.  I'm curious about the depth of his work and/or how the clubs show today.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I'll start....For the 100th I nominate Country Club of Columbus.  A sweet little Art Hills renovation that has the interesting feature of teeing off at least one hole from the surface of the practice putting green.  In Georgia that is..What do you think...High, Low or Just Right.

[Mike_Sweeney]

This is why I like the Doak scale. There is no way for you and I to compare Wianno and Columbus. Now if you ask me how far to travel to play Wianno, I would say play it if you are on Cape Cod, thus < 50 miles. A Doak 5 with maybe a little juice for the pretty views and atmosphere, but don't pass up Hyannisport #75? or Oyster Harbors #76?

My nominattion for worst Ross would be Newton Commonwealth (MA), an 18 hole shooting gallery of a golf  course sitting on a 9 hole property.

[Greg Tallman]

Alamance CC in North Carolina... not the best of his works.


A little further research shws the course was "redesigned" by Willam Byrd in the 70's... interesting as I recall the club maintaining the Ross name as designer last time I was there???

[cary lichtenstein]

I thought critiicizing any Ross course was a taboo here on GCA?

[Tom Dunne]

I would think something like Triggs Memorial would fall around here. Not bad at all, but certainly well down the list of Ross's best.

[Aaron Katz]

On this topic, is it better to spend scarce resources (time & money) playing a sustandard "Ross" course or playing a solid new course by a Cornish, Silva, etc.?  Ross was pretty prolific, but it is said that he often times spent no more than  a day on certain sites.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Bill,

I'm sure you had no idea that when you rate a course a 6.5 on the Golfweek scale it puts the course at 100 on either list.  Good for you if you just so happened to rate 99 other courses above that breakpoint number.  You are mister diagram for God's sake...have you no feeling of scale between a great course and a poor one..

[John Kavanaugh]

On this topic, is it better to spend scarce resources (time & money) playing a sustandard "Ross" course or playing a solid new course by a Cornish, Silva, etc.?  Ross was pretty prolific, but it is said that he often times spent no more than  a day on certain sites.  

Aaron,

Some of us just play where life takes us...

[Tom_Doak]

John:

Where do you think French Lick falls on the Ross 400?  Is it in his top 100?  What about Broadmoor in Indy?

I think I've seen maybe forty, but I am guessing that the #100 Ross course is still pretty good, a solid 5 or 5.5 on the Doak scale.

[John Kavanaugh]

John:

Where do you think French Lick falls on the Ross 400?  Is it in his top 100?  What about Broadmoor in Indy?

I think I've seen maybe forty, but I am guessing that the #100 Ross course is still pretty good, a solid 5 or 5.5 on the Doak scale.

Tom,

I've seen French Lick prior to renovation and never seen Broadmoor (Indy).  I would put French Lick at around 65th and Broadmoor close to 30th (that is why I offered to join)..note 20 through 30 is tough as anything near 20 can get you on the Golfweek top 100 classic.  I guarantee you that the 100th best Ross course is pretty damn good...I'm guessing top 500 in the country (classic or modern)..

[John_Conley]

Bill,

I'm sure you had no idea that when you rate a course a 6.5 on the Golfweek scale it puts the course at 100 on either list.  

Actually, you don't know what you are talking about again.  A rating of 7 or higher is intended to imply "on this list" versus "not".

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Check your lists...both #100's are 6.5's..

[John_Conley]

Check your math.  If all panelists vote a course 7, which is the borderline of Top 100 - "on the good side" to borrow from Al Czervik - it is unanimous and would not be rated #100 at all.  It would be well up the list.

A score of 6.7 implies that 2 out of 3 panelists think it is worthy.  I believe what you'll find is that courses that have more than half the panel seeing them as Top 100 worthy are going to make it and if it is at just 40% or 30% it'll miss the list with a score of 6.2 or something.

Are you just talking out of your ass or have you evaluated the statistical integrity of Brad's work?

A Golfweek vote of 6.5 in essence means, "loved it...close...but if I were the only voter this would be a near miss."  That part isn't a gray area.  It is explicitly stated in the Rater Handbook that a score of 7 is to be thought of as the Mendoza line.

[John Kavanaugh]

Check your math.  If all panelists vote a course 7, which is the borderline of Top 100 - "on the good side" to borrow from Al Czervik - it is unanimous and would not be rated #100 at all.  It would be well up the list.

A score of 6.7 implies that 2 out of 3 panelists think it is worthy.  I believe what you'll find is that courses that have more than half the panel seeing them as Top 100 worthy are going to make it and if it is at just 40% or 30% it'll miss the list with a score of 6.2 or something.

Are you just talking out of your ass or have you evaluated the statistical integrity of Brad's work?

A Golfweek vote of 6.5 in essence means, "loved it...close...but if I were the only voter this would be a near miss."  That part isn't a gray area.  It is explicitly stated in the Rater Handbook that a score of 7 is to be thought of as the Mendoza line.

puke...I don't know rater math.  

[John_Conley]

Bill,

I'm sure you had no idea that when you rate a course a 6.5 on the Golfweek scale it puts the course at 100 on either list.  Good for you if you just so happened to rate 99 other courses above that breakpoint number.  

"I don't know rater math."

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I don't know why you decided to derail what was a fun little thread and was bringing to light some Ross courses I was not aware.  Why does your magazine call each #100 course a 6.5 if it is not a 6.5.  If ten raters give a course a 7 isn't it a 7...not a 6.5.  Please don't answer me on this thread...save it for a resort conference room or do us civilians a favor and quit publishing the numbers.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I think I've seen maybe forty, but I am guessing that the #100 Ross course is still pretty good, a solid 5 or 5.5 on the Doak scale.

Jaka,

I would take it one step further and would guess that he had 200 courses that ranked between 5-5.5 and 80 courses 5.51 or higher. Just not that many above 7.0 from what I can see.

Bald Peak # 82?
Sakonnet # 65? - did not play it, short, a beautiful spot on the water in RI

[John_Conley]

John,

I don't know why you decided to derail what was a fun little thread and was bringing to light some Ross courses I was not aware.  Why does your magazine call each #100 course a 6.5 if it is not a 6.5.  If ten raters give a course a 7 isn't it a 7...not a 6.5.  Please don't answer me on this thread...save it for a resort conference room or do us civilians a favor and quit publishing the numbers.

How is anyone derailing a fun little thread.  As usual, you make strong statements and purport to know things you don't.  The comedy is your certainty, then immediate backdown that you either weren't serious or weren't talking about something.  YOU brought up Golfweek ratings.  YOU.

I was LMAO on Wednesday when I took a walk around the holes near the clubhouse at Hazeltine - which you call a "flat" course.  Aside from the hills, you're right.

If 10 (and only ten see it) raters give a course a 7 the average is 7.0.  Such a course would be well within the Top 100, which makes sense because it is considered a Top 100 course by everyone that has seen it.

Why on earth would anyone take what you say seriously when you can't even do it yourself?  I don't know a thing about bidding road construction, lining up surety bonds, and dealing with subcontracted labor.  Since I don't know about it, I don't make claims about it.

You want the 300th best Ross?  I nominate Daytona Beach.  Somehow I don't know that it will be easy to get agreement here.  Maybe Woodhill is at 100.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Thanks..Now I get your logic..If you think a course is the 100th best in the country give it a number that would place it around 50th..That way people who don't see it the same way as you won't hurt your agenda.

I have never seen Hazeltine as I could not get permission to play during my recent visit to Mayo...Now only if I had behaved myself all those years...

Your logic of rating courses higher or lower than where they belong to protect your own valuable opinion helps explain to me why Tobacco Road does not break the list...There is alot more room on the low side for you agenda driven guys when a course just doesn't meet to your liking...A 4, 3 or 2 must just wreck the hell out of a 7 or even an 8..

[John_Conley]

So when you stated Hazeltine was flat during the PGA you were talking out of your ass?  Oh yeah, I figured that out back then.

A person could have the effect of cancelling out the votes of others by over- or under-rating with their one vote.  I don't know if it happens.

How is this so hard for you to figure out?  Ask 10 people what the best course in Indiana is and you will probably not have unanimity.  Ask 300 to rate thousands and you'll find that all panelists don't vote the same.  If they did, you'd only need one panelist.

Where should a course be ranked if 80% of those that have seen it consider it worthy of Top 100 status and 20% think it misses by a little.  The answer is on the list and the math is something like a 6.8.

If I played every course in America and had 200 courses rated 7 or higher I would invariably rate some courses worthy that others did not.  If I'm one of just 10% of all panelists that considers a course worthy - say Longmeadow or something - my 7 may be blended with everyone else's vote for it to average 6.1.  That course misses even though I score it a 7.

If you want the average score of the 100th best course to be 7 you will have to tell people that they should rate a course they consider 76-100 something more than 7.0.  

Here's an idea, maybe Brad should change the way he instructs panelists to appease one person that is off his rocker.  Send him a letter and I'm sure he'll get right on that.

If you can verify any of your claims that the "America's Best" process doesn't work I'd give your comments some credence.  You keep knocking on the same door and can't  break through with anything that makes sense.

Why this vendetta?  Contrary to how you feel, I can assure you the world is not out to get you.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I'm not mad at you or the system..I forgive you, I understand you and I simpathize with you...In fact I'm sorry.  It is perfect human nature to give a course a 7 if you want it to come out a 6.5...I get it..

[Glenn Spencer]

I thought Broadmoor was a fantastic golf course with some of the best people that I have ever met for the first time. 30th might be a little high, 100th is way too low. It is a really hard, but good question. Do to the lack of shape, I wonder if Granville golf course might not be right around 100 for DR. Miami Valley Golf Club, now that it is lush and green has probably fallen to that are as well.

[Michael Moore]

John Conley -

I too am terribly confused.

Where would a course end up if 100% of the raters who saw it all gave it a 6.5?

[John_Conley]

obviously 6.5