Ron Whitten on Dismal River&Ballyneal

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Take a look:



http://tinyurl.com/p66d5


www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/20060918dismal_bally.html

[Kevin_Reilly]

First time I've read about a (supposed) Nicklaus influence at Ballyneal.

I hope he's wrong about this:

I am concerned that Ballyneal may suffer by its refusal to allow golf carts. (It gets hot there in the summer, and golfers need shade and breeze, both of which could be provided by carts.)

[Kevin_Reilly]

PS, here is the full URL:

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/20060918dismal_bally.html

[Adam Clayman]

(The 10th is 509 yards, downhill off the tee, uphill to the green. The par-4 13th is 510 yards long, with a fairway that's 100 yards wide.)

I suppose we know where Ron drove his ball, because the green is not uphill, unless one's tee ball finds the leftside bowl. Where it would feel like it's uphill to the green. Also, the 13th has three center line bunkers. One, being the creative reverse bunker.

it's nothing that couldn't be rectified by a dramatic sand feature up the right side of the dogleg-left 18th, some massive eye candy well out of reach of any golfer, but still within the frame of the closing composition.

Huh? An eye candy bunker on the outside of the dogleg, where there's nowhere to naturally place one because of the flatness?

 

[Tom_Doak]

I guess GOLF DIGEST has given up on promoting walking ...

There are a couple of factual errors in the piece regarding the grasses on the two courses -- Ballyneal is not pure fescue fairways but a blend of many things, and my information was that Dismal River has a lot of fescue, too.

I don't know if Nicklaus had anything to do with my two 500-yard par fours [CORRECTED]; I think it had more to do with the altitude (3700 feet) and the dry conditions making everything play short.  We played the Renaissance Cup from about 6800 yards and it still wasn't that long.  And I've done lots of centerline bunkers before my collaboration with Jack, starting with the second at High Pointe.

Last but not least, Ron credits Bruce Hepner, Brian Slawnik and Don Placek (and others) with the greens.  Each did spend quite a bit of time on site (Bruce ran the job), but they worked more on the bunkers and the fairways ... Kye Goalby and Brian Schneider and Eric Iverson shaped most of the greens, with myself and Dan Proctor each contributing one.  Strangely, Brad Klein did the same thing in his Sebonack book, dishing out credits without just asking me who did what, and getting some of them wrong.  It's a team effort, but it's hard to promote teamwork if the guys who do the work get left out.

[wsmorrison]

Never having been to either course, I cannot comment on the critiques.  

I do wonder what Ron Whitten meant by a term in this sentence:

"Dismal River Club, almost literally in the shadow of Sand Hills, just a few miles upstream from that club's cottages along the same narrow, artesan-fed stream..."

There is no such word as artesan.  Could he have meant artisan, which means a person skilled in an applied art; a craftsperson or more likely artesian which is a man-made well made by boring into the earth till the instrument reaches water, which, from internal pressure, flows spontaneously like a fountain?  Artesian wells are usually of small diameter and often of great depth.  The Dismal river is spring-fed and, according to historic accounts, has never run dry.

[Dan Kelly]

I guess GOLF DIGEST has given up on promoting walking ...

There are a couple of factual errors in the piece regarding the grasses on the two courses -- Ballyneal is not pure fescue fairways but a blend of many things, and my information was that Dismal River has a lot of fescue, too.

I don't know if Nicklaus had anything to do with my two 500-yard par fives; I think it had more to do with the altitude (3700 feet) and the dry conditions making everything play short.  We played the Renaissance Cup from about 6800 yards and it still wasn't that long.  And I've done lots of centerline bunkers before my collaboration with Jack, starting with the second at High Pointe.

Last but not least, Ron credits Bruce Hepner, Brian Slawnik and Don Placek (and others) with the greens.  Each did spend quite a bit of time on site (Bruce ran the job), but they worked more on the bunkers and the fairways ... Kye Goalby and Brian Schneider and Eric Iverson shaped most of the greens, with myself and Dan Proctor each contributing one.  Strangely, Brad Klein did the same thing in his Sebonack book, dishing out credits without just asking me who did what, and getting some of them wrong.  It's a team effort, but it's hard to promote teamwork if the guys who do the work get left out.

Tom --

Sounds like a proper occasion for a Letter to the Editor.

It's hard to promote the need for accuracy if the guys who generate the inaccuracies aren't called to account.

And, as we all know, no one at Golf Digest has the time for this forum!

Dan

[cary lichtenstein]

I find Ron Whitten's reviews more interesting in what he did not say, e.g., he usually gives a course a rating if you check past reviews, like an 8.8 if he finds a course especially good, those rating were absent.

[Aaron Katz]

I have seen a number of Whitten reviews that don't have a rating.  I suspect he doesn't often give ratings to private courses because it is largely superfluous.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I don't know if Nicklaus had anything to do with my two 500-yard par fives; I think it had more to do with the altitude (3700 feet) and the dry conditions making everything play short.

I am a little confused. Whitten says Doak built 2 par 4's that measure over 500 yards with a Nicklaus influence. whitten said, "(The 10th is 509 yards, downhill off the tee, uphill to the green. The par-4 13th is 510 yards long, with a fairway that's 100 yards wide.)"

Tom, seems to be saying they are par 5's. What is the correct version?

[Jim Franklin]

The only person I recall giving most every (if not all) courses he reviews a rating is Brad Klein.

With "walkability" as a Golf Digest rating category, it surprises me that Ron says Ballyneal needs carts. Caves Valley in Maryland gets along fine without them and, as most here know, the muggy middle Atlantic summers can be brutal plus Caves is not an easy walk.

[PThomas]

I think Ron should give each course a rating..seems to me that is part of the job of critic

[John Kavanaugh]

Paul,

Whose scale should Ron use...Why don't you educate him on how you rate courses for Golfweek so the majority of GolfClubAtlas can better understand.  We have already established that this board does not understand the Doak scale...I bet Ron gives Ballyneal and Dismal River two thumbs up..and I havn't ever yet read his review.

I think a great critic gets beyond a 8.7 and a 7.3 which is about where each course goes in your world...you pick which is where.

[Dan Kelly]

I think Ron should give each course a rating..seems to me that is part of the job of critic

Did Bernard Darwin give ratings?

He just wrote beautifully. That should be enough.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think Ron should give each course a rating..seems to me that is part of the job of critic

Did Bernard Darwin give ratings?

He just wrote beautifully. That should be enough.

Dan,

I give your post a 6.45...which means it won't make the list but it should make you feel good about yourself as you can be assured it is one of 300 other posts that is somewhere between the 100th and 110th best of the year.

[Tom_Doak]

The two holes in question are both par fives, with a back tee over 500 yards, as Ron stated.  My mistake above, which I will correct.  Both holes have several tees; #10 can be played over 500 yards, at 475, at 430 where we played this week, or down to about 350 from the forward tee; #13 goes from 505 at the back to 425 from the next tee, even though the scorecard doesn't have another yardage listed until 396.

I suspect Ron balked at giving ratings to the two courses because they are both currently being considered for "Best New" and he didn't want to put a number on them which expressed a preference for one over the other with the issue still undecided.  But, it's still a cop out.

Dan K:  Darwin didn't need numbers, and NO critic of golf courses alive today writes nearly as beautifully as he did.

[Jerry Kluger]

Whitten might have gotten some minor things wrong but overall I think the article is right on.  The sand hills provide a wonderful canvas for Nicklaus and Doak to work with and they have done a magnificent job with their respective courses.  The remoteness of the area is part of its charm and I have heard that there have been some tensions brewing between the ownership of SH and DR.  

The big question to many is where these new courses will be ranked by GD.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

Once again, are the over 500 yard holes 4's or 5's?

As far as the review, Ron did put a numeric rating on the internet reviews for a short while, but has since stopped doing that.  Whether its to avoid influencing his panelists, to be different than Golfweek, or just philosophical - he probably tends to review the upper crust of courses, so why have a precise numeric value? - I don't know.

I got the feeling from the article that he is implying what several have suspected would be true - no matter how good the other knock off courses are, there will always be just one and only Sand Hills.

[John Kavanaugh]

There are no tensions between the owners or members of Sand Hills and Dismal River...The only problems arise from people who believe they are entitled to play both courses when in the area.  I wish each course including Ballyneal would develope a policy stating that no single person can play any of the three courses in the same two week time frame.  This would solve any and all problems associated with the hit and run crowd and return the courses to the destination destinations they should be instead of a group of stop and shops..

btw...Jerry..why would you start such a petty rumor..

[Sean Leary]

Jeff,

They are Par 4's.

[Dan Kelly]

I wonder what Mr. Whitten meant by Sutton Bay's "pretender" course. Sounds like an uncalled-for cheap shot, to me.

I wonder, too, if Golf Digest has any copy editors anymore. "Artesan" is not the only boo-boo.

Hoping for another 6.45 on the Kavanaugh Scale,
Dan

[RJ_Daley]

Oh boy, we are going to have such fun in coming years, with all the comparisons and critiques.  I can't wait until Valentine also gets added into the sand hills tour.

JK, I can't agree with you on the proposed policy of limitting those fortunate enough to get invites to multiple courses on the same trip out there.  Even rich folks can't afford the time and extra money (or don't want to spend more than necessary) to make multiple trips to see them all, if they can get more than one course in on the same trip.  We have to have folks experiencing all of them to get interesting reflections and commentary...

[John Kirk]

Like everyone involved in one of the great new course designs, Mr. Whitten will have a tough time being unbiased in his assessments.  It will be no surprise if Erin Hills is his favorite.

[John Kavanaugh]

Oh boy, we are going to have such fun in coming years, with all the comparisons and critiques.  I can't wait until Valentine also gets added into the sand hills tour.

JK, I can't agree with you on the proposed policy of limitting those fortunate enough to get invites to multiple courses on the same trip out there.  Even rich folks can't afford the time and extra money (or don't want to spend more than necessary) to make multiple trips to see them all, if they can get more than one course in on the same trip.  We have to have folks experiencing all of them to get interesting reflections and commentary...

I personally think we miss true insight into Dismal River or Ballyneal that we have gotten in the past with Sand Hills with all the current course hopping.  What's the hurry...Enjoy one course for three days one year then go enjoy the next in the future.  I would guess these short visits are worthless to all but the visitors..

[Tom Huckaby]

John - I think you're right.  But won't this be much ado about nothing after a year or so, when the raters stop coming?  They do tend to only come once for the most part....

Once the ratings are done and rankings are relatively set, these courses will revert back to the members and become the sole destinations they are each intended to be.  

No?

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