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cary lichtenstein

We ended our summer travels yesterday at Royal New Kent and were just blown away.

We played Stonehouse the day before and were a bit dissappointed, although we were happy we played it and would recommend it to everyone to play at least once.

RNK on the other hand, minus maybe the 17th and 18th holes, were 'uniqueness to the 3rd power', to coin a new phrase here on GCA.

The routing was fantastic, the scale grand, the bunkering and greens wonderful, the conditioning was too soft but who cares when you see a piece of art. Was Strantz the Salvidor Dali of golf course architects?
If you compare RNK with Dismal River, you can see just what a genius Strantz was with his routing. Strantz used his high points to partially hide greens. so his course is emminently more playable for the average player.

Aside from the long cart rides which I'm sure turned off more than a few on this board,RNK should be a must study for every architecture student and every golf architect.

The question that comes to mind, "Why aren't more architects doing work like this"??????????????????????
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 09:05:40 AM by cary lichtenstein »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mike_Sweeney

It was my understanding that those courses have struggled financially from day 1?

JESII

cary,

I had the exact same feeling after about 2 holes on my first visit to Royal New Kent. This is the one course I have played in my life that I would call a piece of art. It seemed Strantz was really trying to paint a picture. Simply a mindblowing experience if you ask me. #2 floored me.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 09:24:15 AM by JES II »

Jeff_Brauer

Strantz was an artist. Tobacco Road had an influence on my Quarry Course - mainly teaching me that I could build some of the Quarry holes and make the course playable and yet far more dramatic than the average course.

There are a "hat trick" (sorry, pre-season hockey opens tonight!) of reasons why more work doesn't look like that, and I even toned down his basic style at the Quarry for them:

Maintenance Costs

Knowing his courses get a rep for being borderline unplayable.

Construction Budget - to move the earth he does to create RNK, he had to skimp on drainage or irrigation to build it in any form of budget that would work for the Owner on an upscale dailey fee basis.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Hoak

Drainage has been an issue at RNK since Day One.  The staff also had to battle severe bunker erosion after every heavy storm.  Drainage has been improved on the course and particularly in the bunkers, though it is still far from perfect.

As for financial viability, the course's location is not the best.  It would likely be more successful if it were closer to Richmond or Williamsburg, rather than lying half of the way between the two.  The course is also hurt by tthe fact it has a reputation locally of being too difficult for high handicappers.  I talked my father into taking a large group of his retired (largely high handicapper) golfing buddies there and half of them loved the course and the other half despised it.  They all complained about lost balls in the rough.

I love the course and make an effort to drive down from DC and play it at least once a year.  I recieved a promotional email recently that offered membership at RNK and Stonehouse for $150/month.  If I lived closer, I would snap up that offer in a heart beat.

Strantz always claimed that he did not move nearly as much dirt at RNK as people assume.  I also agree about 17 and 18 being out of place, but that drainage pond had to go somewhere.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 10:44:27 AM by Mike Hoak »

Jay Flemma

Yeah, I love them boyth two and they are so convenient with a girlfriend in DC...ready made getaway weekend!

Although here's one of my fave stories.  Nance told a guy in her law firm I was taking her to play there FOR HER FIRST ROUND OF GOLF EVER and he raised his eyes in horror and said "Are you sure this guy likes you?"

She had a rough time...192...not counting about 2-3 whiffs per stroke counted (PER STROKE!)...5 hours and 40 minutes later...we let 6 groups through.  Basically, if I saw them behind us, we just waved them through...

cary lichtenstein

Jay:

You are clearly a sick puppy ;D

But what an enjoyable way to end a relationship ;D ;D ;D
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tim Taylor

I love RNK (played it Friday in fact) but I wish to hell that I could play it sometime when it wasn't soaking wet and cart path only. All four times I've been there have been after a lot of rain.

It is a BRUTAL course when it's CPO. There are holes where you can be in the middle of the fairway and the path is 100 yards away.

But none of that should be held against the architeture.

Enough has been said about 17 and 18 that the only thing I'll add is that the waterfall behind the 18th green appears to have washed away.

Tim
Golf Club at Lansdowne

cary lichtenstein

Tim:

I didn't see a waterfall behind 18 either

Cary
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Ryan Farrow

Didn't Strantz build the waterfall on that course as a joke?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 02:00:38 PM by Ryan Farrow »

Mike Hoak

I don't think I have ever seen that waterfall turned on.  I can tell you one thing from personal experience--an overclubbed iron shot that hits that waterfall on a fly bounces a hell of a long way back into that pond.

Tim: My father calls before he goes to the course to make sure it is not cart-path only.  He refuses to play there when its CPO.

Jay: Out of curiosity, how many balls did she lose?  I took my father-in-law out there.  He's a big hitter with zero accuracy.  He blew through a dozen Pro VIs in 6 holes.  
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 02:08:09 PM by Mike Hoak »

JESII

Can someone explain to me what must be a very basic tenent of GCA? Why is #17 and #18 at RNK so out of character with the rest of the golf course, or what about them makes them so? I hear that all the time and am trying to see what is meant, but struggle to do so.

Jim Nugent

Yeah, I love them boyth two and they are so convenient with a girlfriend in DC...ready made getaway weekend!

Although here's one of my fave stories.  Nance told a guy in her law firm I was taking her to play there FOR HER FIRST ROUND OF GOLF EVER and he raised his eyes in horror and said "Are you sure this guy likes you?"

She had a rough time...192...not counting about 2-3 whiffs per stroke counted (PER STROKE!)...5 hours and 40 minutes later...we let 6 groups through.  Basically, if I saw them behind us, we just waved them through...

So Jay, how did that set up the getaway romantic weekend?  

Jeff Taylor

Played there on January 3rd. Rained all night on the 2nd. Bunkers were washed away.
The waterfall behind 18 is falling apart.
Some images from that fateful trip are included below.








JESII

Just as I remember, like playing golf on the moon. If only that place could be maintained as Strantz would have liked.

Actually RNK is the basis for one of my main GCA questions. I've asked it on here several times and get some good answers from the pros, but why is there such an apparent disconnect between the architect and his vision and the ongoing presentation (maintenance primarily) of the golf course? No answer needed, I just wanted to mention that RNK is the epitome of this problem for me because I thought the course was just unbelievable but seemingly misplaced.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 04:59:58 PM by JES II »

PThomas

I had the pleasure of playing RNK last summer

the world of golf lost a great talent far too soon when Mike S. passed away
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tim Taylor

JES,

You've 16 holes that with big, bold features. Massive dunes, bunkers that are way over your head, heaving fairways, multi-tiered greens with fierce false fronts. And then 17 is a gentle dogleg right par 5 with a stream that meanders all along the right side of the fairway and then cuts in front of the green. Pine trees on both sides (admittedly, very far away as the corridor is huge). And 18 is a tee shot to a peninsula fairway. From there it's an iron to an island green with a waterfall (not functioning these days).

Out of character. Imagine white sand in the bunkers on the last two holes at Pine Valley. Or acres of wispy fescue on a few holes of Augusta.

In actuality, I've always thought the course lost it's Irish links flavor (not that I've ever been to Ireland, mind you :)) after the 14th hole. 15 is a man sized par 3 (220 is from the tips, 200 from the 69xx yard tees) across a chasm to an elevated green. The bad thing is the horse stables and the smell just to the left.

16 is a tough dogleg left par 4, but it lacks the dunes and heaving features that define the first 14 holes.

Tim

Can someone explain to me what must be a very basic tenent of GCA? Why is #17 and #18 at RNK so out of character with the rest of the golf course, or what about them makes them so? I hear that all the time and am trying to see what is meant, but struggle to do so.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 12:01:18 PM by Tim Taylor »
Golf Club at Lansdowne

Tim Taylor

I'll take a shot at this one too JES. After my round on Friday I remarked to the assistant pro in the pro shop that I really want to come when it's firm and bouncy and not wet and mushy. His response was "Why? People like it green and it's easier to control your ball".

I thought, "what a dumbass". Sorry if that's too blunt, but that's how I felt. If anything, I love the look in the pictures on this thread where the bermuda is dormant. Screw green, I want some roll.

Tim

Just as I remember, like playing golf on the moon. If only that place could be maintained as Strantz would have liked.

Actually RNK is the basis for one of my main GCA questions. I've asked it on here several times and get some good answers from the pros, but why is there such an apparent disconnect between the architect and his vision and the ongoing presentation (maintenance primarily) of the golf course? No answer needed, I just wanted to mention that RNK is the epitome of this problem for me because I thought the course was just unbelievable but seemingly misplaced.
Golf Club at Lansdowne

Jason Blasberg

About 8 years ago, during my Summer golf tour after the bar exam, I played Caledonia and Royal New Kent on the same trip with a couple of buddies.  We played about 10 courses in 7 days and those were head and shoulders above the rest.

This was long before I knew who Mike Strantz was but it was clear to me these were special places.  

I hope in time more of Strantz' work, like RNK and Tobacco Road will be recognized for the gems they are.

   

JESII

Tim Taylor,

Thank you for both responses. I'll agree with your playability assessment, it really is a shame and the numbers are not in favor for those of us that feel as you do about brown-ness. Hell, it's not even unanimous on this site.

While not trying to disagree on the continuity perspective I do want to explore it a bit further. I played there in a four round tournament for three consecutive years from 2000 - 2002. When you add in a practice round or two each year I've got 15 or more rounds under my belt, admittedly in competition so not exactly studying the architecture.

I will admit that #18 is a different type of hole than the others (I see more similarities between #17 and the first 16 than do you) but I really felt that each hole was sort of its own piece of art work. The routing brings absolutely no continuity to the course as each hole is not only visually segregated from the others, but geographically segregated as well. The total distance from green to tee must be 3 or 4 miles. to me this was an experiment by Strantz to see just what he could do with each hole, and he did amazing things. I just don't think he was creating a "course" in the sense that the architect tries to create "flow". "Flow" is important to me, very important because I really enjoy walking and it's not quite possible at RNK. I take RNK out of the box of typical golf courses because I love it but in 18 parts as opposed to one whole unit, and I think Strantz did as well.

Thoughts?

JESII


I hope in time more of Strantz' work, like RNK and Tobacco Road will be recognized for the gems they are.



I have not played any of his other courses but I obviously feel as you do about RNK. What do you think about Jeff Brauer's comments above as it regards the future viability of this type of course?

Jeff_Brauer

......I remarked to the assistant pro in the pro shop that I really want to come when it's firm and bouncy and not wet and mushy. His response was "Why? People like it green and it's easier to control your ball".

I thought, "what a dumbass". Sorry if that's too blunt, but that's how I felt. If anything, I love the look in the pictures on this thread where the bermuda is dormant. Screw green, I want some roll.

Tim


Tim,

If you were Homer Simpson, you would probably have asked yourself, "Hmmm, did I say that in my head or out loud?"  I hope it was the former, even if I agree with your opinion. ;D

It does give the mindset of the average player these days.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

Just as I remember, like playing golf on the moon. If only that place could be maintained as Strantz would have liked.

Actually RNK is the basis for one of my main GCA questions. I've asked it on here several times and get some good answers from the pros, but why is there such an apparent disconnect between the architect and his vision and the ongoing presentation (maintenance primarily) of the golf course? No answer needed, I just wanted to mention that RNK is the epitome of this problem for me because I thought the course was just unbelievable but seemingly misplaced.

JES,

Just wondering - why would you ask the pros, rather than the superintendents?

The old "design triangle" of strategy, aesthetics and maintenance is still intact for all but a handful of rich clubs.  For most designs, those factors should be something near an equilateral triangle, or at least a 1-2-3 (30-60-90 degree) triangle.  

Strantz was an artistic genius, but his design triangles had a very strong lean to the artistic!  He hardly considered maintenance aspects, which is why they can't be maintained to his vision as play/revenue declines.  (Some would say he considered play aspects less than the artwork as well.)

BTW, its not always pure money. For instance, my Cowboys club, which is knocking them dead at almost 50,000 rounds at $165 greens fees re-did some steep bunkers and eliminated some "less important" ones.  For superintendents its just the hassle of using your whole crew for bunker shoveling at a moments notice that makes them want to flatten / eliminate /simplify, bunkers.  Like golfers in general, only a few supers really care about design over their admittedly substantial every day maintenance problems of "doing more with less."

There results a design question (sometimes) of whether to design something great and flashy (including steep bunkers) that may not last, or to design something pretty good, and easy enough to maintain when times are bad that probably will last.  Most of us who have designed great, but hard to maintain things have seen them redone, and get more conservative over time.

It would have been interesting to see if Mike would have changed his style as time went on in response to such real world problems.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

Jeff,

I think the architects would have a bit better knowledge of their own personal goals with respect to a course presentation. The superintendents probably would not know exactly what you wish unless you tell them. In my mind, the party to fault in this is ownership. I am sure you would be happy to make a couple of bucks by staying involved with your courses to a small degree, and the light-footedness you demonstrate here would make it nearly impossible for you to step on the toes of the super you might be consulting with, so who's to lose?

I agree with your comments about Mike Strantz (albeit from very limited real experience, and a bit more virtual  ;) experience). I am much more into function as opposed to form and as such am usually more impressed with a design that does not overwhelm the eyes, but does require sound decision making and shot making for success. RNK does not fit into that mold because it is so overwhelming to the eyes, but I still love it. I see it different than most golf courses. I see it as a piece of art, or rather 18 pieces of art.

Do you agree that the more conservative appearing bunkers can serve the same real function as the flashy dramatic looking bunkers? Or is the visual component really that much stronger in teh overall product than I might value it?

cary lichtenstein

Do the new trap liners hold the sand any better in the Strantz type traps or is it ineffective in the steepness?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

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