Confused golf courses.

[Ryan Farrow]

I started this thread in regards to my experience playing the North and South courses at Talking Stick. I was impressed with the North course in just about every way but when I went back to play the South course about 2 weeks later it did not feel the same. The north course was typical desert golf with the exception of massive fairways. On the other hand the south course had a very artificial feel. The water hazards, tree-lined fairways, and some pretty thick rough for AZ standards. It is especially awkward when there are patches of desert in between holes. Although there are quite a few courses in the valley that try do pull off this micro environment they all seem to fail miserably. Ocotillo which is another Troon managed facility pulls of this look well but it begs the question should this "style" be avoided at all costs in the desert? What other courses have succeeded in trying to pull off a look that is not typical of its surroundings?

[Brad Klein]

Ryan, I think you raise a good point, but that two things need to be separated here. Talking Stick North/South were obviously intended to be completely different from each other. I'm not sure that qualifes for "confused," but you are right, that the South was meant to be a very different micro-environment than everything around it. As was (to answer your real question)

-Shadow Creek
-Loch Lomond
-World Woods-Rolling Oaks Course
-Phoenix CC and CC of Arizona
-by definition, any landfill course or reclaimed wasteland (i.e. Harborside International, Industry Hills, McCullough's Emerald Links)

[Steve Burrows]

First, off, how many facilities can you think of with 36 holes of consistently high quality golf?  Royal Melbourne and Winged Foot come to mind.  But think about the two courses at Winged Foot.  They share the same property and holes often run parallel to each other, but, with some exceptions, few would confuse a hole on the East course with one on the West.  Much like the design of an individual hole, a 36 hole facility must provide options.

As far as courses that just don't seem to belong to their environment, I'd say most attempts at "links" design that are plopped into the midwest.  Some can get away with it because those lands were historically prairie, and the contours of a constructed golf course can mimic that history, but most come across as simply pushing dirt solely to create corridors for play.  For example, I actually enjoy both Purgatory Golf Club outside of Indianapolis and the Kampen course at Purdue, but neither, in my mind, seem to fit the land.

[Steve Burrows]

I am actually suggesting that both courses (at both Talking Stick and Winged Foot) are a treat to play.  Their differences were intended to make them unique from their sibling so that they could stand alone.  That accounts for their discrepancies, not that Tillinghast or C&C put any less effort into each course, or that one is intrinsically more deserving of merit than the other.

[Jim Sweeney]

Ryan:

If one played the original courses in the Phoenis area, what is referred to as "old Arizona," including the Wigam (Blue and Gold - RTJ)) and the Biltmore, one would find courses like the South at Talking Stick. The reason probably is the easterners who developed the courses brought their eastern perception of golf to the designs- wall to wall green, trees, water hazards.

More recently the water restrictions in the Salt River Project area (not to exceed ninety acres of irrigated land and use of effluent) almost demand what we now call "desert golf."
In have played TS North (wonderful) but not the South. Is it more compact than the North?

[Ryan Farrow]

Jim, I would say the south course is pretty similar in size to the north course and it does not seem like the 90 acre limit was in effect when these courses were built.

IMO the hazards on the south were more penal than strategic and two 470 yard par 4's made things a bit more difficult. Thankfully there was a nice 10-15 mph wind so the holes did not play that long. I might play the south course once for every ten times I played the north.

[Tim Pitner]

As was (to answer your real question)

-Shadow Creek
-Loch Lomond
-World Woods-Rolling Oaks Course
-Phoenix CC and CC of Arizona
-by definition, any landfill course or reclaimed wasteland (i.e. Harborside International, Industry Hills, McCullough's Emerald Links)

Brad,

In what way does Loch Lomond not fit in with its surroundings?  Although it's an American-style course in Scotland, it seems to fit the land fairly well.  

[Brad Klein]

If sopping wet and overrun by gnats is your idea of well-situated, maybe so, but as a consultant told them at Loch Lomond, "you're building it on the wrong side of the Loch - the wet one."

[Tim Pitner]

Brad,

What you say may well be true, but what does that have to do with the course not being "typical of its surroundings"?

[Brad Klein]

You mean like Scotland?