An expansive design with LARGE greens

[Patrick_Mucci]

The Meadow Brook Club is unique in the Metropolitan NY area.

It's a Dick Wilson design that lost some holes due to the sale of perimeter land, yet, the golf course is outstanding.

The greens are amongst the largest I've ever encountered.

I can't think of a golf course in the Met Area with such expansive putting surfaces, and, almost all of them have a good deal of slope.

In some cases the greens appear to be 60 yards deep, which translates into a 5 club variable with extreme hole locations.

A simple 9-iron can become a difficult 4-iron by merely moving the hole.

And, there's adequate room to lengthen the course a good deal.

Playing to such massive greens creates unique problems.

A miss hit approach can result in a 40 yard putt, something golfers are rarely prepared for.

Chipping/pitching from 40 yards is fairly routine, but, putting from 40 yards is rare, hence, the ability to read putts that long and having the touch to execute putts that long is a skill few possess.

With greens that big, and with the tendency for golfers to hit short of their target, misgaged and mishit approaches usually result in numerous three putts, which can frustrate and put additional pressure on the golfer.

Are there any other golf courses old or new with massive greens ?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat

The Monster up at the Concord Hotel in the Catskill Mountains was built by Joe Lee in the 1960's and it was ahead of its time in that the front of the forward tee boxes measured 6800 yards and the tips could play to over 7800 yards if I recall correctly.  It utilizes lots of water and greens that are both sloped as you described and probably average 50 or more yards front to back.

It was too much course for me back then but still always fun because it was perfectly maintained and allows alternate lines of play.

Have you played it?

[wsmorrison]

You mean besides an obviouse selection, the double greens at The Old Course?

George Fazio's Moselem Springs (1964) in Fleetwood, PA has some very large greens with quite a bit of undulation.

[ed_getka]

Aviara GC, down towards San Diego. A Palmer course if I remember right. It has some massive greens. One interesting thing about really big greens is you get lulled into just hitting the green and after a few really long putts, you pay much more attention.

[Tom_Doak]

The Heathland course at The Legends in Myrtle Beach has some really big greens -- three of them are over 10,000 square feet.  But there are some smaller ones in the mix there, too.

Meadow Brook has far and away the biggest greens of any course I've played in the last five years.

[George_Bahto]

Geoff Childs: the Concord's Monster:

Back in the 70's and 80's, when the course was in the great condition you spoke about, my longtime playing partner and I used to go up there 2 to 3 tomes a year and play 36 holes (and have their great lunch which was included in the daily package).

As a group they were the largest greens I ever played on.

Many of them were certainly 4 club greens and as Patrick noted, it is somehow so easy to come up short - could never figure out why you couldn't get the ball back in the green as much as you should.

We were usually the first group out in the morning (the place was so soft in the morning, balls plugged on many of the greens and most of the fairways) - the afternoon round was totally different as the course firmed up .......... two totally different courses many times.

We stopped going after the conditions deteriorated.

There were a number of very good holes up there.

[Jason Blasberg]

Pat:

Engineers has a few huges greens.  I paced #1 at 50 yards deep the other day, # 11 is likely 50 yards plus as is #15.  Those greens, however, are more narrow than what I recall seeing at Meadow Brook.  

Actually so is the par 3 9th is also very deep . . . it's a 7-8 iron to the front location and 4 iron to the back.

Pin placement makes a big difference on what I hit off the tee on holes 1, 11 and 15 (all par 4s).

On #1 a front pin means 3-wood, back pin means driver.

On#11 a front pin could be as little as 4 iron off the tee and a back pin is 3 wood or driver.

On #15 a front pin is a 3 wood (so long as it's not into a stiff wind) and a back pin is always driver unless is severely down wind.

Jason

[John_Conley]

Are there any other golf courses old or new with massive greens ?

Orange County National would certainly qualify.

[Doug Bolls]

I have not seen anything to match the massive greens at the course Ben Crenshaw designed for Barton Creek in TX - they are approaching the size of a football field in some places - reminds me of the double greens at TOC.  I know he enjoys putting, but these are way big.
DB

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The 1st green at Meadowbrook is the largest single pin green I've ever played.  Quite afew of Meadowbrook's greens have width in addition to depth.  The Concord has some extremely long greens, but none of them combine length and width like quite a few at Meadowbrook.  I've always thought that the greens at Meadowbrook were modeled after the 9th at Oakmont which is around 20,000 sq. ft. I

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoff Childs,

I've never played the Concord's Monster, designed by Joe Lee.

I have however, played the Concord's Monster designed by Joe Finger

I used to play it quite often.

However, I think Meadow Brook's greens are far larger.

If someone could post a Google aerial of the golf course it would be helpful.

Robert,

I see a slight similarity in the slopes of Wilson's greens at Deepdale and Meadow Brook, however, the scale of the greens at Meadow Brook is unlike anything I've ever seen, including BPB.

Yet, Wilson designed relatively small greens at some of the holes at Pine Tree.  I believe the 15th is barely 2,500 sq/ft.

It's unfortunate that so little is known about Dick Wilson's designs.

Joe Lee and Robert Von Hagge were his assistants.
I'd be curious to know why he designed Meadow Brook's greens on such a grand scale, it certainly wasn't because of heavy play.

[ForkaB]

What constitutes a "LARGE" green?

The greens at Dornoch range from 4,500 to 12,800 sq. feet.  4 of the last 5 holes are 10,000 sq ft. or more.  They average about 8,400 sq. feet.  Average depth is 123 feet, average width 68 feet.

Pat--would this be considered "expansive?"

[Geoffrey Childs]

      My bad Pat. I mixed up my Joe's.

Your question was "Are there any other golf courses old or new with massive greens ?" and not are there course with larger greens then Meadowbrook.  I've not played Meadowbrook but the Concord has most of its greens where there are 4-5 club differences depending on pin locations.

George - your memory is good.  I've forgotten about those lunches where you stuff your face with all that Borscht Belt Catskills Mountains food.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

Those are certainly large greens.

I'd imagine that some of Meadow Brook's greens run in the 16,200+ to 21,600+ range.

Geoff,

The Concord's greens are sizeable.
Joe Finger also did Glen Oaks but I don't think the greens are in the Concord's league.

George Bahto,

Years ago there was a green at Forsgate that was reputed to be the largest single green in the world.  It was a punchbowl type amphitheatre.  Do you know its dimensions or sq/ft ?

[George_Bahto]

George Bahto,

Years ago there was a green at Forsgate that was reputed to be the largest single green in the world.  It was a punchbowl type amphitheatre.  Do you know its dimensions or sq/ft ?

Pat - I don't which green your speaking of - I've only visited/played Forsgate a couple times but the most suspect-large green would be a double plateau green.

In the period (I think) you're talking about the Biarritz would not have been a fully planted/cut putting surface.

[Jason Blasberg]

Geoff:

What's the approximate square footage of the 9th at Yale, I recall it was 60 yards deep, correct?

JKB

[George_Bahto]

Jason:

Here are some of the distances on some of the larger Biarritz greens:

Yale: 70 yds
Chicago yds: 80 yds
Creek: 85 yds

if they were fully planted as full green:
Piping Rock:  74 yds
The Knoll: 75 yds

[Brian Joines]

Angel's Crossing has some of the largest greens I've ever played on.

[Tom_Doak]

The green at Forsgate was a "punchbowl" type for a long par four -- the fifth hole I think.  It's huge.  If it still exists in that form -- when I was there in the late 1980's they were getting ready to replace that hole and two others (including the Redan) to get more golf-frontage housing, but I think they abandoned the plan after building the replacement holes.

[Dan Moore]

William Langford built some very large greens.  The 10th and 4th at Lawsonia both longish par 3's are good examples.  

At Spring Valley in Wisconsin, site of the MW GCA get together in October, the driveable 285 yd 14th has what once was a 14,000 sq ft green.  It is quite a bit smaller today but the outlines are there.    

[RSLivingston_III]

The Langford holes at Marquette CC have, or I should say had, some amazingly large greens.