[Mark_Fine]

Guys,
Thanks for all the posts.  I apologize for not having the time to chime in (still don't right now).  Just quickly, our Watson project is the former Berkeley CC (see how many of you know what club that is)    The course has lots of potential but right now is "tired".  

Someone asked about Olympic; I have a digital photo of Watson's plans for Olympic but it is not great.  I need to get a better one.  The design incorporates lots of fairway bunker complexes.  If I am not mistaken, the only fairway bunker on The Lake Course at Olympic is on hole #6 (I believe thanks to RTJones).  

The relationship between Hunter and Watson is interesting and something I plan to delve into much further.  

I will try to get back to this thread later.
Mark

[BCrosby]

The pictures are great but don't begin to do justice to the movement in Belvedere's fairways and greens. At spots the movement can be is breath-taking.

Like TOC, at first it appears to be a low-key, rather dull course. Don't be fooled. It is anything but.

Bob

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ralph, those are some great photos, and the ironic thing about it is that the 1st at Belvedere looks like a near duplicate golf hole to the 1st at Hacienda which just also happenes to be Willie Watson!

I'm going to have to put the brakes on you hear for a moment though. Watson's bunkering never at all looked like Bell's. The bunkering in that aerial is in my opinion the work of Billy Bell. I'll stake my reputation on it. (what reputation?!?!?)

I'll also have you know that Watson worked with a lot of people, including George Thomas to some degree.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Just quickly, our Watson project is the former Berkeley CC (see how many of you know what club that is)    The course has lots of potential but right now is "tired".  

Mark -- see my list below....looks like I picked the winner.  

I don't know the answer, but here are some possibilities (in the order I judge the likelihood):

Mira Vista CC in El Cerrito

Diablo CC near Danville  

Orinda Country Club

[Mark_Fine]

Kevin,
You did  

Everyone,
Check out this old map of the course dated Dec 1920!  Note the fine print in the bottom right corner.  In case you can't read it, it says - "Information on layout of Golf Course furnished by Mr. William Watson and Mr. Robert Hunter".  

[Sean_Tully]

Mark

That plan is pretty cool. Make sure you talk to Al Barkow as I have given him some of my early newspaper articles that reference Hunter's role at the club and with the design. I have mentions that he made a proposed plan and Watson came in and made some changes to it, to what extant I do not know. Was that at the USGA?

Regarding Watson's plan for Olympic, what was the time frame? Almost as soon as Whiting comes over from Berkeley he was making changes to Olympic in 1921-22, was that something he was doing on his own or was he following Watson's plan? I also have a mention to Fowler drawing up plans around that time as well.

My research covers 1920-1925 so as I said before it seems that it would be before as I saw no mention to a Watson Olympic connection.

Tully

[T_MacWood]

That Berkeley drawing is very interesting...you don't see any of the Bell characteristics. I would tend to agree with Tommy about Bell being involved at Belvedere.

[Mark_Fine]

Tully,
The date of the Olympic plans by Watson that I have is 1924.  

Tom,
Early call would be that Tommy is correct about Bell.  

Got to run!
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

Thought I would pull this thread back up top.  If anyone has any more information on Watson or his courses, please feel free to email me.  Thanks and happy holidays!
Mark

[David Stamm]

Watson has recently been credited w/ Hacienda GC in La Habra, which I'm sure Tommy N can shed some more light on. It was originally credited to Behr, but upon Harbottle's restoration, they discovered Watson was the original designer. Here's the website.  


http://www.haciendagolfclub.com/html/index.cfm?CID=136

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy N:

Your categorical assertion that "Watson's bunkering never looked like Billy Bell's" is interesting but I don't know how you could hope to back it up.

For sure, the drawings of Belvedere supplied by Watson for George Thomas's book appear to be in the same style as the 1938 aerial photo, which dates those bunkers back to 1926.  I suppose Bell could have been involved with them if he was in the midwest at that time, but even so, what would make them Bell's work and not Watson's?  (Among other arguments, George Thomas was very scrupulous about crediting the architectural work in all of the photos in his book ... see the photo of the 8th at Pebble Beach ... and he had personal relationships with both men, but Watson and not Bell is credited for Belvedere.)

I think you're playing revisionist historian because you are an advocate of Bell's ability.  Bell's work was too good to require that.  But everybody has to learn somewhere, and learning is a two-way street ... all of my associates' contributions make my work better, but in many cases, their work wouldn't look so good if I hadn't put the hole where I did and suggested the bunker positions or edited their shapes.

[Jon Wiggett]

What the hell happened to the bunkers? Are they yet more victims of the advance of the Sandpro?

[Tom_Doak]

Jon:

I was shocked when they found the 1938 aerial photo, after Bruce Hepner had been consulting at the club for several years.  I always suspected that the bunkers were different because of the drawings in the Thomas book, but not THAT different.

Courses in northern Michigan can lose their bunker shapes pretty quickly.  The golf season back in the old days was only three months and the grass grows for six or seven and there was not a lot of staff around to maintain it.  I'm surprised those shapes lasted as long as 1938, but I'd bet they were gone by 1945, long before the Sand Pro.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
The only way I can back it up is by photos, both oblique, vertical aerials and ground level shots, and also by going out and looking at the stuff and seeing what once existed in the ground. I don't think it's much different then you or Jim do when you look at courses and utilize a golf club's historical information and archives.

Also, without going back and looking at the previous post (I haven't seen this thread since it started some months ago) I do remember seeing that aerial and going--That's Billy Bell bunkering. You may have proof to disprove this, but if it isn't Bell overseeing it, then certainly its someone that built them for him.

As far as Bell vs Watson or Watson vs. Bell, I'm playing no partiality and for what it's worth, I hvae identifeid a few courses now that were incorrectly identified as Billy Bell, when in fact they were Willie Watson. I can provide you with that information if needed, but not on-line.

There are several clubs I have done an inordinate amount of research that feature courses that claimed William P. Bell was the original architect. Both of those instances the research proved that wrong, and further evidence of photos, both oblique, vertical and ground level show bunkering not even close to the same or anything remotely like the dramatic aerial showing Belvedere.

As far as revisionism, I don't think I've done anything that could warrant that accusation, In fact I detest the thought of revisionism, but maybe you know something and aren't actually coming out and saying?

I don't think I've ever make a claim that I wouldn't be able to back-up, but what I've seen of Belvedere--that particular aerial, well it looks very Bell-like. Could you provide some evidence which claims it isn't? If you can, please do, it will be definitive information on a style that was never seen in any Watson courses out here.

I could also go on further but will not simply because if Mark wants 411, he is going to have to call and ask for it.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jon:

I was shocked when they found the 1938 aerial photo, after Bruce Hepner had been consulting at the club for several years.  I always suspected that the bunkers were different because of the drawings in the Thomas book, but not THAT different.

Courses in northern Michigan can lose their bunker shapes pretty quickly.  The golf season back in the old days was only three months and the grass grows for six or seven and there was not a lot of staff around to maintain it.  I'm surprised those shapes lasted as long as 1938, but I'd bet they were gone by 1945, long before the Sand Pro.

Tom,
If that's the case, then what year have you found Watson to have stopped designing golf courses?

As far as I can tell, here in California, he was done before the start of the Great Depression. IF, and IF what you say is true, that that type of bunkering wouldn't last, then in 1938 how come it's still in the photo?  I'm not basing this on any definitive information as to when Watson stopped designing, or at least cut way back. I'm only looking for a direction which to go and further research.

[Forrest Richardson]

Sean — Watson was removed from Harding Park by the City because they saw that Sam Whiting was doing most of the work. I have a history written by a longtime parks "gardner" and, next time we meet, I shall have it copied for you. It covers all of the City courses and is quite complete. Also — FYI — there are great rolls of plans/drawings at Sharp Park that need to be carefully documented before they get pitched or, worse, eaten by silverfish! Call Dan the "head gardner" and mention that you would love to help him protect them.

[Bill_McBride]

Regarding Watson's plan for Olympic, what was the time frame? Almost as soon as Whiting comes over from Berkeley he was making changes to Olympic in 1921-22, was that something he was doing on his own or was he following Watson's plan? I also have a mention to Fowler drawing up plans around that time as well.

I understand that Herbert Fowler designed Crystal Springs above Burlingame on the peninsula south of San Francisco.  What other courses was he involved with in the Bay Area?

After the Buda Cup in Hoylake in October this year, several of us had the pleasure of playing two of Fowler's best original designs in England that haven't changed much since 1910 -- Delamere Forest and Beau Desert.  Actually, if the greens at Beau Desert are the benchmark for Fowler greens (and I remember a lot of contour in what I think were the original Fowler greens at Crystal Springs), somebody considerably softened the Delamere greens in the past.  Beau Desert is marked by wildly contoured greens, interesting angles off the tees on many holes, and strong bunkering around the greens.  Delamere Forest has all the same characteristics but generally flattish greens, which definitely suffered by comparison with Beau Desert's great greens.

What else in the Bay Area was designed, modified or influenced by Herbert Fowler?  And where else in the U.S. did he work?  It's hard to believe he traveled from England to work on one or two courses in the San Francisco area.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Not to thread jack, but Bill, don't you think Beau Desert's greens are worth much more attention and study than they seem to get?

Mark

[Bill_McBride]

Not to thread jack, but Bill, don't you think Beau Desert's greens are worth much more attention and study than they seem to get?

Mark

Absolutely!  

[Kevin_Reilly]

What else in the Bay Area was designed, modified or influenced by Herbert Fowler?  And where else in the U.S. did he work?  It's hard to believe he traveled from England to work on one or two courses in the San Francisco area.

Del Paso, for sure.  I had read somewhere that he was involved with Sequoya (Oakland), but the club's web site has no mention of him as far as I can see:

http://www.sequoyahcc.com/coursehistory.html

[David Stamm]

What else in the Bay Area was designed, modified or influenced by Herbert Fowler?  And where else in the U.S. did he work?  It's hard to believe he traveled from England to work on one or two courses in the San Francisco area.

Bill, if I'm not mistaken, Fowler worked in the L.A. area and specifically on the original layout of LACC.

Del Paso, for sure.  I had read somewhere that he was involved with Sequoya (Oakland), but the club's web site has no mention of him as far as I can see:

http://www.sequoyahcc.com/coursehistory.html

[BCrosby]

Also — FYI — there are great rolls of plans/drawings at Sharp Park that need to be carefully documented before they get pitched or, worse, eaten by silverfish! Call Dan the "head gardner" and mention that you would love to help him protect them.

Forrest - Another example of why a gca archive would be a good thing. There are probably hundred of similar "caches" that are at risk of being pitched in the trash for no better reason than freeing up shelf space. I hope that the USGA will soon be in a position give such materials a home.

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

Also — FYI — there are great rolls of plans/drawings at Sharp Park that need to be carefully documented before they get pitched or, worse, eaten by silverfish! Call Dan the "head gardner" and mention that you would love to help him protect them.

Forrest - Another example of why a gca archive would be a good thing. There are probably hundred of similar "caches" that are at risk of being pitched in the trash for no better reason than freeing up shelf space. I hope that the USGA will soon be in a position give such materials a home.

Another example - in July 2005 I was at Alwoodley where I played with Nick Leefe.  After lunch he said he'd be back in a minute and disappeared out to the car park.  When he returned he had the ORIGINAL hand drawn Dr. MacKenzie routing plan of Alwoodley!    It was almost spiritual holding it in my hands after just playing the course and seeing the holes still exactly as originally drawn.

Later I thought, Nick needs to keep that artifact in a safer place - what if he was rear-ended on the way home?  

[BCrosby]

Great example, Bill.  Keep you friend's contact information.

My guess is that there is an awful lot of similar materials that will appear out of the mists once a reputable repository (like the USGA, hopefully) begins publicizing its availability.

Perhaps I'm overly anxious, but I worry that those sorts of materials are being lost or tossed almost daily.  Primarily because people don't know that there is a place that wants them and could preserve them. And - to boot - that would give them a tax deduction at the FMV of the materials donated.

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

Great example, Bill.  Keep you friend's contact information.

My guess is that there is an awful lot of similar materials that will appear out of the mists once a reputable repository (like the USGA, hopefully) begins publicizing its availability.

Perhaps I'm overly anxious, but I worry that those sorts of materials are being lost or tossed almost daily.  Primarily because people don't know that there is a place that wants them and could preserve them. And - to boot - that would give them a tax deduction at the FMV of the materials donated.

Bob

Bob, I'm guessing the R&A would probably want to be the repository of the Alwoodley map!

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