[TEPaul]

"Precisely! Slowly but surely you're coming around. Although you still don't quite a have grasp on how the A&C Movement acted as a catalyst."

Tom MacWood:

That's interesting, as that's about the fifth time you've made that remark.

I can assure you I do have a grasp on the English A&C Movement and the dynamics of Victorian England. And I can assure you that I've spoken to a few people who have a far better grasp of that age and the English A/C movement than you do. When I mentioned that you thought it was so all-pervasive they just laughed and said you obviously have a lot to learn about the entire Victorian age and ethos of England.

But I will assure you again that I am not coming around to the fact that the A/C movement acted as an influence or a catalyst for what happened in the heathlands or how the "Golden Age" of golf course architecture began and was influenced by the linksland model, particularly TOC and the heathland inland model. I've pointed out to you a number of times what I think the catalysts were and they were not the A&C movement.  

I read your five part essay again today and it's really shocking how little you even tried to directly connect the A&C movement to golf course architecture. If you read your own writing on Willie Park Jr in that essay it pretty clearly makes my point that his influence and inspiration was linksland Scotland and most of those other heathland architects inspiration and influence was TOC which most of them knew so well.

I guess when you wrote that essay you just figured most on here didn't know much about the English A&C movement or the dynamics of Victorian England and so you probably figured most on here would take some of these far-fetched assumptions you made on faith.

Maybe that happened for a time at first but this website is better and smarter than to fall for something like that for long.  

Again, I do not believe the English A&C movement was a powerful influence on the beginning of the Golden Age in England and I do not believe it was a catalyst either for the interest in the Scottish linksland and particularly TOC that began to occur in architecture just before and after 1900.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Are you speaking of George Landow? He wasn't laughing after we conversed over a period of time and he actually read my essay as opposed to having it explained to him by someone whose goal is to disprove it and whose knowledge of the A&C movement is based on summering in an English vernacular home in Maine. In fact George asked me to contribute an essay to his Victorian site...by the way he knows next nothing about golf.

Was the A&C movement a powerful influence on the move from the city to the countryside around London (and other industrial cities in Britain) in the late Victorian era and was it a powerful influence on vernacular design becoming the inspiration for a wide range of arts and crafts at that time?

[wsmorrison]

"Was the A&C movement a powerful influence on the move from the city to the countryside around London (and other industrial cities in Britain) in the late Victorian era and was it a powerful influence on vernacular design becoming the inspiration for a wide range of arts and crafts at that time?"

Was the A&C movement more influencial in the population movement from city to countryside than railroads?

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
The transportation system around London was not developed to stimulate the movement into the countryside, it was developed to address it.

[TEPaul]

"TE
Are you speaking of George Landow? He wasn't laughing after we conversed over a period of time and he actually read my essay as opposed to having it explained to him by someone whose goal is to disprove it and whose knowledge of the A&C movement is based on summering in an English vernacular home in Maine. In fact George asked me to contribute an essay to his Victorian site...by the way he knows next nothing about golf."

Tom MacWood:

One of those I've spoken to is George Landow. I mentioned where he could find your article and he did that eventually. He does not believe your assumptions on the influence and pervasiveness of the English A/C movement under a William Morris that is outlined in your five part essay was anything like you assumed it was and either do some other experts on Victorian England and the A/C movement generally.

It certainly is true that George Landow knows nothing about golf or architecture and he mentioned that the first time I spoke with him and told him why I was calling. He asked me to write an article for his website on Victorian Era golf in England about a year before you ever spoke to him. I doubt you'd have ever known of George Landow if I hadn't mentioned him to you and his website---The VictorianWeb.

George Landow, Golfclublatlasers, is an English and history professor at Brown University and he's the webmaster of his website VictorianWeb.

Tom MacWood has stated on here that he thinks Landow and the VictorianWeb is misreading the English A/C Movement or the Victorian Era or not treating it comprehensively enough. I do not agree at all with MacWood on that either. It's essentially the same rationale he uses on here with those who disagree with his assumptions and conclusions of the powerful influence of the A/C movement on GCA of the Golden Age in his five part essay that can be found on here entitled "Arts and Crafts Golf".

I can pretty much assure all of you that Landow and those who contribute to his VictorianWeb site know a whole lot more about the Victorian Era in England and the A/C movement in England and all the details of both than Tom MacWood does or probably ever will.

Wayne:

Do you notice how Tom MacWood seems incapable of just answering a question put to him? All he seems capable of doing is responding to a question with some other question. That type of modus operandi doesn't lead to intresting information or to very productive discussions on any subject, in my opinion.

[T_MacWood]

TE
It comes as no surprise your explanation of my essay to him got one effect and his actually reading it got another....hence he asked me to contribute to the site.

Was the A&C movement a powerful influence on the move from the city to the countryside around London (and other industrial cities in Britain) in the late Victorian era and was it a powerful influence on vernacular design becoming the inspiration for a wide range of arts and crafts at that time?

[TEPaul]

"TE
It comes as no surprise your explanation of my essay to him got one effect and his actually reading it got another....hence he asked me to contribute to the site."

Tom MacWood:

You don't get it. I've spoken to Landow a number of times including after he read your A/C movement essay. By his own admision he doesn't know a thing about golf or golf architecture so how much of an influence on GCA or the Golden Age of golf architecture the A/C movement may have been is not something he's going to have an informed opinion on, again, by his own admission.

What he, and those he put me onto regarding the English A/C movement don't agree with you on is the pervasiveness or the popularity of the A/C movement in England that you've consistently make it out to be on here. And it was most certainly not some dominant "philosophy" of Victorian England that you're trying to make it out to be. That's what those such as Landow laugh about.

I've spoken to him about a lot more than just golf architecture and the A/C movement in England. I've spoken to him about the truth and real ethos of Victorian England itself. It was far more dynamic than it's given credit for today and Landow makes an analogy of its cultural dynamics to our own country of the 20th century. Do you think there's some one "philosophy" that's pervasive and dominantly popular in our time and country too?  

There were a whole lot of things going on in all kinds of ways and areas in Victorian England and for you to try to pass off on us or anyone that the Arts and Crafts Movement was the dominant movement of its time and popularly recieved by that entire society and in all art forms is just a rather stupid joke. Landow and those who really understand the Victorian Age understand that, and so do I, but obviously you don't and maybe you never will.

All you've done is just massively over-play the importance of the English A/C movement to more conveniently compare it and it's influence to other areas and art forms such as golf course architecture. That's what one former academic on here labelled "postivism" and that's what it is---a form of transparent rationalizations to make a point and a conclusion.

The extent of the influence on GCA of the English A/C movement that you've assigned to it has been found to be seriously wanting on this website and you're just going to have to learn to admit that and deal with it rather than just constantly calling those who disagree with your rationalizations confused or uninformed.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Apparently you've even forgotten that I called you and asked you if you wanted to collaborate WITH ME on an article for Landow and his VictorianWeb site on Victorian golf and architecture after he asked me to write an article on it. I believe I mentioned that on this website so that thread would be on the back pages. At that point you were not aware of Landow until I told you about him.  

Interesting selective memory you have to try to make some point but by now you should know you can't get away with stuff like that on this website.  

[T_MacWood]

Tom MacWood:

Apparently you've even forgotten that I called you and asked you if you wanted to collaborate WITH ME on an article for Landow and his VictorianWeb site on Victorian golf and architecture after he asked me to write an article on it. I believe I mentioned that on this website so that thread would be on the back pages. At that point you were not aware of Landow until I told you about him.  

Interesting selective memory you have to try to make some point but by now you should know you can't get away with stuff like that on this website.  

TE
Did you call me or send me an e-mail? And if you look back at my message you'll see that I told you I'd been aware of the Victorian Web for several years and viewed their Ruskin info while researching my A&C  essay. And I agreed to collaborate on an essay, in fact I have produced two notebooks of notes on the subject since then...what have you done?

[TEPaul]

"And I agreed to collaborate on an essay, in fact I have produced two notebooks of notes on the subject since then...what have you done?"

I haven't done a thing on Victorian golf or Victorian golf architecture for the VictorianWeb and I doubt I will. Feel free to do it yourself but if you deny or don't include the influence of steeplechasing obstacle features on very early English Victorian inland golf architectural features such as the berms and bunkering of that period I will definitely remind you how wrong or inaccurate I think you are not to.

And if you mention that the primary catalyst to a change from Victorian golf architectural features in inland England back to the natural model of the linksland and TOC was from the catalyst of the English A/C movement, I probably will write an article myself for George Landow and his site completely counterpointing your article.  

[T_MacWood]

TE
He wasn't laughing when I told him you were using him to discredit my essay and that the least he could do was read it before criticizing it. He admitted he had not read it but that he never criticzed it, he would never dismiss an essay he had never read...he was simply responding to what you had told him--pretty pathetic, but predictable, which is why I contacted him.

He did read it a short time later and we had an interesting exchange.

[TEPaul]

"TE
He wasn't laughing when I told him you were using him to discredit my essay and that the least he could do was read it before criticizing it. He admitted he had not read it but that he never criticzed it, he would never dismiss an essay he had never read...he was simply responding to what you had told him--pretty pathetic, but predictable, which is why I contacted him."

Tom MacWood:

Pretty pathetic?? You're joking. Apparently you expect anyone and everyone who may read an article by you to take what you say on faith, or with no criticism. That's not going to happen anywhere, I'm sure, and most certainly not on this website.

George Landow did not hestitate to say he knew very little about golf and nothing about golf architecture. So, even if he had read your article before I first spoke with him he likely would have had nothing to say about its conclusion---eg the powerful influence of the English A/C movement on the Golden Age of Golf Architecture----eg the title of your essay "Arts and Crafts Golf".  

What I spoke with him about was the A/C movement in England in the 19th century and also about the Victorian Age in general. I did tell him that your point on here was that the English A/C movement was massively pervasive and almost universally popular in England in the Victorian Age thereby effecting and influencing all art forms.

About the Victorian Age in general obviously Landow is a recognized authority. On the English A/C movement in particular he simply explained to me what some of those he believes to be the best authorties on the English A/C movement and the A/C movement in general felt about it and had said and written about it.

He then told me who he considered those authorities on the A/C movement to be and I contacted them too.

The point is none of them concur with you about the pervasiveness and the general popularity of the A/C movement in Victorian England. They pointed out that the A/C movement was just one of a number of movements going on during an unusually dynamic time in history, in thought, social, economic, artistic and cultural areas---the Victorian Age. This is a pretty important point because essentially it's been the premise on which you've based your essay and the premise on which you base everything you've said here on this discussion group about the A/C movement and its ability to powerfully influence golf course architecture of the Golden Age.

If that's criticism you consider pathetic then so be it. The point is you've constantly criticized me for not knowing enough about the subject of the English A/C movement so I simply went to perhaps the world's best authorities on it and on the time in which it existed---eg Victorian England.

If one of your premises about the significance of the A/C movement and its popularity and pervasiveness is over-blown or exaggerated, which of course it is, then your assumptions and conclusions are going to be skewed and probably incorrect.

That's what I've been trying to point out on here and I believe I have by going to those who understand both the English A/C movement and the entire age of the Victorian Era a whole lot better than you do.

If you consider criticism of the things you write pathetic, perhaps you should seriously consider just not writing these kinds of essays at all.

Furthermore, I told Landow up front precisely why I was calling him. If he didn't feel like speaking with me following that he certainly had the choice not to. I suggest you do the same to those you try to get information from. There are a few local government officials in Merchantville NJ who are still furious at you for not doing that considering you failed to tell them you may write about what they were telling you.

Trying to pass that oversight of on me is what's pathetic, in my opinion. Apparently you're trying to do the same again on this issue of the English A/C movement and the Victorian Era.

Information and opinion dissemination in the public arena is fair game for criticism from anyone but maybe you don't feel that way about it. This is the United States of America you know?

[T_MacWood]

I've spoken to him about a lot more than just golf architecture and the A/C movement in England. I've spoken to him about the truth and real ethos of Victorian England itself. It was far more dynamic than it's given credit for today and Landow makes an analogy of its cultural dynamics to our own country of the 20th century. Do you think there's some one "philosophy" that's pervasive and dominantly popular in our time and country too?  

TE
I think we may have identified the reason for your disconnect...at least one of them. If you are trully interested in discovering what was going on in society from say 1895 to 1910 - the period in question - the Victorian Website is not the place. Its not George's focus...in fact I told him I thought his site was woefully short in covering A&C related information (he said he was hoping to get more contributors writing about it). As a result the Victorian web virtually ignores that period I suspect because that Victorian ethos you are talking about (which is the site's focus) was on the decline and was being rejected by the A&C movement.

The ethos I've been talking about is one that stretches from last years of the Victorian period into the Edwardian...in fact it is usually associated more with the Edwardian. During this period the term Victorian had a negative connotation (read Colt, Alison, MacKenzie's descriptions of dark age golf architecture). Maybe you can find an Edwardian website.

Here are a few examples of what isn't covered on the Victorianweb: Little or no coverage of late 19th C architecture...no mention of Lutyens (one of England's greatest architects who worked in the late Victorian period). Little or no coverage of landscape architecture and the garden city movement...no mention of Jekyll (an icon in England whose career began in the late Victorian period). Poor information on that periods mass media, no mention of the most popular magazine Tit-Bits and no mention of Country Life that periods most popular lifestyle magazine, no mention George Newnes or George Riddell. No mention of the flight to the country. Very little mention the 1870 Education Act and the public schools effect upon late Victorian and Edwardian culture. Very little on the pursuit of leisure and popularity of Sport (see golf). No Elgar (another icon). No radio, telephone or automobile, etc etc

If you're interested in this period I could recommend several books.

[TEPaul]

"TE
I think we may have identified the reason for your disconnect...at least one of them. If you are trully interested in discovering what was going on in society from say 1895 to 1910 - the period in question - the Victorian Website is not the place. Its not George's focus...in fact I told him I thought his site was woefully short in covering A&C related information (he said he was hoping to get more contributors writing about it). As a result the Victorian web virtually ignores that period I suspect because that Victorian ethos you are talking about (which is the site's focus) was on the decline and was being rejected by the A&C movement."

Tom MacWood:

My disconnect??

As usual you aren't listening. You probably aren't very good at reading or processing what you read. I've told you Landow didn't claim to know anything about golf and particularly golf architecture. He also never claimed to be an expert authority on the English A/C movement. That's why he told me who he thought were the best authorities on the English A/C movement. He never said each of those people had contributed to his VictornianWed site either and neither did I. This doesn't surprise me about you and its obviously a reason you're so prone to making all kinds of incorrect and bizarre assumptions about all kinds of things.

In my opinion, and apparently now in the opinion of others on here you tend to go at a subject with too many preconcieved notions. You probably have some preconcieved conclusion you want to float and you just manage your research and your deductions to arrive at that preconcieved conclusion. Anything that's factual and historic that's inconsistent with your preconcieved conclusion you just disregard, ignore entirely or criticize as confused those who point out your inconsistencies and inaccuracies.

Labellng this technique as academic "positivism" is perhaps the best description to date of what you do.

[TEPaul]

"If you're interested in this period I could recommend several books."

Thanks, but that won't be necessary. Depending strictly on advocates isn't the best way to understand an entire era or time anyway. Morris's dream of connecting all art forms was just that---eg Morris's dream. The different between his dream and the extent it became a reality is what's historically important. Apparently you don't understand or appreciate that. But others who understand the details and nuances of entire eras certainly do.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Who did he say were the best authorities?

Is Sir Roy Strong strictly an advocate...he covers the arts through out the history of Britain...you might even learn something about Capability Brown from him. What about Clive Aslet or Adrian Tinniswood? They cover a broad range of periods. There are plenty of historians to seek out who are not dedicated to the A&C movement if that is your concern....or alternatively you can stay in a Holiday Inn Express.

And is there a reason you aren't answering these two questions: Was the A&C movement a powerful influence on the move from the city to the countryside around London (and other industrial cities in Britain) in the late Victorian period and was it a powerful influence on vernacular design becoming the inspiration for a wide range of arts and crafts at that time?

[TEPaul]

"TE
Who did he say were the best authorities?"

I'll tell you what, Tom MacW, why don't you just call him and ask him yourself?

I'm getting sick and tired of always having to clean up your mess.  

[T_MacWood]

Is it a secret?

We're still waiting for your answer to the 2 questions above...perhaps you can confer with the authority.

[TEPaul]

"....or alternatively you can stay in a Holiday Inn Express."

Yeah, right, blah, blah, blah!

"And is there a reason you aren't answering these two questions: Was the A&C movement a powerful influence on the move from the city to the countryside around London (and other industrial cities in Britain) in the late Victorian period and was it a powerful influence on vernacular design becoming the inspiration for a wide range of arts and crafts at that time?"

Tom MacWood:

Yes there is---a very good reason, in fact. Those two questions and even their answers are so general as to be virtually irrelevent to the question of whether the A&C movement was a powerful and direct influence on the golf course architecture of the Golden Age.

That kind of logic and that kind of reasoning is a large part of your problems with deduction and intelligent and interesting analysis of a specific subject.

If you want to talk about Jekyll and the A/C garden movement in and around London, or the arts and crafts movement in the English countryside in and around London then I guess the trains and some population relocation to the English countryside would have some passing interest, application and relevency, but then again, perhaps not.

But this isn't about those things at all. You tell others to open their minds more. I don't tihnk so. What you should do is learn how to focus on a particular subject a bit more specifically.

Generalizing ad absurdum, the way you do to try to make some connection and some point, is not opening one's mind--it's just not very interesting, informative or educational.  

But I must admit, the ad absurdum generalizing technique you use does give you the opportunity to drop all kinds of names and such that you obviously think makes it appear like you actually know something about a subject.

"Is it a secret?"

Is it a secret? I guess that depends on what "it" is.

[T_MacWood]

TE
No doubt the trains were an important factor in the growth of the suburbs around London, especially after the ball got rolling so to speak. The question is what got the ball rolling.

The location of stations and the absence of stations effected golf architecture as well...Woking and Huntercombe for example. I've actually looked into the subject....although I'm certainly no authority.

Please don't give us you won't deal with generalities and for that reason you won't answer the question...you are Mr. Generality.

...Capability Brown was an influence on parkland golf architecture...which courses?...I don't know...Steeplechase was an influence on Victorian golf architecture...why do you say that?....because Bernard Darwin mentioned steeplechase...when and where did he mention it and what was the context?....I don't know...which courses?...I don't know...

Thats all you deal with because you have little or no specific information because most of your knowledge is gleaned from the Internet, C&W or from osmosis.

PS: The 'it' is the identity of the authority/authorities. Is there some reason you prefer not share this information with us?

[TEPaul]

"...Capability Brown was an influence on parkland golf architecture...which courses?...I don't know...Steeplechase was an influence on Victorian golf architecture...why do you say that?....because Bernard Darwin mentioned steeplechase...when and where did he mention it and what was the context?....I don't know...which courses?...I don't know...

Thats all you deal with because you have little or no specific information because most of your knowledge is gleaned from the Internet, C&W or from osmosis."

PS: The 'it' is the identity of the authority/authorities. Is there some reason you prefer not share this information with us?"

Not really Tom MacWood, but there is a reason I prefer not to share any information with you anymore. It's a reason you're probably unaware of too, you're so dense. It's because I really do think you're an arrogant ass, with all your "expert researcher" horseshit to anyone who questions any of your "preconieved" conclusions. The fact is you just ain't the brightest cat on the block and you're obviously very insecure about that and that many think that of you and so you're automatic reaction is always that anyone who doesn't agree with your theories or conclusions is confused or uninformed.

I doubt you even know what a steeplechase obstacle looks like. There've been numerous photos on this website alone showing them on old Victorian Age courses but you refuse to acknowledge or admit it. Those photos don't lie and obviously Bernard Darwin didn't either.

And I doubt the connection between the Serpentine style of the LA design of Brown is much of a surprise to anyone considering the connection between those English "park" estates and "parkland" golf courses to come. Perhaps you've never realized the significance or the etymology of what a "park"land golf course is and the English "park".

It wouldn't surprise me. But that is a direct connection between early LA architecture and golf course architecture to come---in a routing sense.

What have you ever pointed to as an example of a direct connection between the A/C movement and golf course architecture other than some ethereal "philosophy" which is the height of uninteresting generalization.

[T_MacWood]

Not really Tom MacWood, but there is a reason I prefer not to share any information with you anymore. It's a reason you're probably unaware of too, you're so dense. It's because I really do think you're an arrogant ass, with all your "expert researcher" horseshit to anyone who questions any of your "preconieved" conclusions. The fact is you just ain't the brightest cat on the block and you're obviously very insecure about that and that many think that of you and so you're automatic reaction is always that anyone who doesn't agree with your theories or conclusions is confused or uninformed.

You won't share your knowledge with the group because I'm an arrogant ass and not too bright...thats very selfish of you.

I doubt you even know what a steeplechase obstacle looks like. There've been numerous photos on this website alone showing them on old Victorian Age courses but you refuse to acknowledge or admit it. Those photos don't lie and obviously Bernard Darwin didn't either.

If I'm not mistaken I'm the source of many of those photos. Do you know the original source of the Darwin quote, when he said it and what the context was?

And I doubt the connection between the Serpentine style of the LA design of Brown is much of a surprise to anyone considering the connection between those English "park" estates and "parkland" golf courses to come. Perhaps you've never realized the significance or the etymology of what a "park"land golf course is and the English "park".

It is an interesting theory...I hope you develop it further. Of course that might require going beyond what you can find on the internet.

It wouldn't surprise me. But that is a direct connection between early LA architecture and golf course architecture to come---in a routing sense.

What have you ever pointed to as an example of a direct connection between the A/C movement and golf course architecture other than some ethereal "philosophy" which is the height of uninteresting generalization.

If you consider a direct connection to be a mention of the A&C movement in a golf architecture context. No.

If you consider a direct connection shared philosophical ideas and cases where A&C practioners, A&C inspired projects, A&C works converged with golf course architects and golf architecture. Yes.

[TEPaul]

"If you consider a direct connection to be a mention of the A&C movement in a golf architecture context. No."

Certainly even a mention of the A/C movement by any Golden Age architect would be something that would allow some serious consideration of a connection between golf course architecture and the A/C movement. But that's not what I mean by a direct connection. What I mean is just something actual or physical to do with actual golf architecture that has SOME connection to the A/C movement.

"If you consider a direct connection shared philosophical ideas and cases where A&C practioners, A&C inspired projects, A&C works converged with golf course architects and golf architecture. Yes."

Those are words but what do they really mean, Tom? You've just got to do better than that if you really want to make a convincing argument for the A/C movement as a powerful influence on GCA. Come on, if you can't do better than that you should give it up on this A/C nonsense as a powerful influence on the Golden Age of Golf Architecture. Try to give me SOMETHING tangible.

I've given you steeplechase obstacles which are undeniably remarkably similar to Victorian Era golf obstacle features, and in some cases probably one and the same. I've given you a landscape architecture style in the 18th century that almost undeniably appears to be utilized by Victorian Era golf course lay-outs (routings), and certainly later.

Just give me SOMETHING remotely tangible or just give it up.

Do you maintain that the A/C movement was a powerful influence on the hula-hoop and the TWIST too?

[T_MacWood]

Certainly even a mention of the A/C movement by any Golden Age architect would be something that would allow some serious consideration of a connection between golf course architecture and the A/C movement. But that's not what I mean by a direct connection. What I mean is just something actual or physical to do with actual golf architecture that has SOME connection to the A/C movement.

TE
You require more proof? You aren't satisfied that Surrey (and the surrounding counties) was ground zero for A&C aesthetic. The Horace Hutchinson's mentor was a prominant person within the Pre-Raphaelite Brootherhood. That Country Life was the most popular life style magazine of that time and promoted the A&C aesthetic. That Hutchinson wrote for that magazine and was the most vocal critic of Victorian golf design and the most vocal proponent of the vernacular model (the links). He was aslo the most vocal supporter of Park, Colt, Fowler et al. That these architects contributed to the magazine as well (and not always on golf architecture, Colt writing on architecture and Fowler on gardening and garden design).

That Hutchinson (and Darwin) worked with Gertrude Jekyll, Lawernce Weaver, AV Tipping, Christopher Hussey and many others assoctiated with A&C or documenting the designers of the A&C movement at CL. That Hutchinson wrote about the overwelming influence of William Morris on all aspects of contemporary life.

That Park hired prominant A&C architect at Huntercombe and North Berwick. That Fowler hired a prominant A&C architect and garden designer at Walton Heath. And Hutchison hired a prominant A&C architect and garden designer at Ashdown Forest. And Hutchinson's home and garden is featured in the book 'The Arts and Crafts Garden' written by Lawrence Weaver and Gertrude Jekyll.

That the projects at Sunningdale and Huntercombe (Mr. TA Roberts) were designed to take advantage of the flight to Surrey (and surrounding counties) and the popular country lifestyle promoted by the A&C movement. The entire aesthetic feel of these projects is A&C. That can also be said of similar projects created by Mr. Tarrant...St. Georges Hill as an example.

What exactly are you looking for?

Regarding the similarity to the steeplechase...which courses would you note as good examples. You enjoy using that Darwin (steeplechase) quote often, have you been able track down when and where he wrote it and the context?

[TEPaul]

"TE
You require more proof? You aren't satisfied that Surrey (and the surrounding counties) was ground zero for A&C aesthetic."

Tom MacWood:

I certainly do. You haven't given anyone any direct proof of any physical and tangible connection between the A/C Movement and golf course architecture at all. Give us something other than this 'ground zero of the A/C aesthetic'. Tell us how it actually physically and tangibly effected golf course architecture. And don't give me naturalism either. The Scottish linksland and TOC provided that model for a Park Jr just fine. Did Park Jr build greens in the healthlands that looked like Morris glassworks or wallpaper? Did he build bunkers that looked like a Jekyll "wild cottage" garden or a Lutyens' house?

Give me something tangible and physical that was an A/C movement direct influence on golf course architecture at that time.

I've given you something physical and tangible on how steeplechase obstacles effected the look of Victorian golf architectural obstacle features. It is impossible for anyone to miss that remarkable similarity and proximity and influence. And I've given you direct tangible and physical evidence of how Capability Brown's Serpentine style 18th century landcsaped "parks" were used to lay-out golf courses on.

Stop beating around the God-damn bush and give us SOMETHING other than this "ground zero of the A/C aesthetic" horseshit.  

Or perhaps you didn't realize that even an "aesthetic" needs to take on a physical and tangible form, particularly when it comes to golf course architecture. Golf course architecture is actual and physical and tangible, my friend, it isn't just some intangible "philosophy" or state of mind.

I'm off to Long Island---I'll catch you tomorrow. Try to come up with SOMETHING that's an actual connection by then.  

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