[TEPaul]

"TE
Was the NGLA more geometric than the early versions of Sunningdale, Huntercombe, Walton Heath, Stoke Poges and the rest of the early London courses?"

Tom MacWood:

Very good question. Why don't you try to give the answer to that question a shot?

I'd think the factual answer to that question would go a long way to better understanding when, how and why golf architecture began to evolve around 1900 and on (the beginning of the Golden Age).

Was NGLA more geometric than many of the first man-made architectural features in the linksland that began to evolve piecemeal out of those natural landforms that golfers had used for golf for hundreds of years---eg obviously TOC is the best example?

It looks to me like those early features in the linksland were not necessarily geometric but remarkably artificial looking---ie sleepers and such.

The difference between the original man-made architecture in the linksland was it began in a more piecemeal fashion and obviously on a much smaller scale initially compared to Sunningdale, Huntercombe and NGLA. The latter were far more comprehensive in what was done by man----eg far more general shaping, grading of greens, tee, obstacle features such as bunkering, berms and mounds et al  (earth-moving).

[T_MacWood]

TE
Go ahead and answer my question.

You said: "Were they [Macdonald et al] natural looking or as natural looking as the architecture of Colt, Fowler, Abercrombie or particularly MacKenzie? I don't think there's any question they were not. "

Have you seen any early photos of the work of Colt, Fowler, Abercromby, Park, Low, Paton, MacKenzie or the NGLA?

[TEPaul]

"TE
I was just correcting your statement. Macdonald did in fact go to London at a time when not only when there was a new wave in golf architecture but also a period when A&C aesthetics was prevasive."

Tom MacWood:

I have no doubt Macdonald did go to London. But just because he went there and just because you claim the A/C Movement was somewhat pervasive in London at that time does not make a connection between Macdonald and his golf architecture, at least not unless you or someone else can point to something even semi-specific. There was a lot of movements going on around London at that time, a lot of dynamic in the culture of the end of the Victorian Age but that doesn't mean any of them influenced Macdonald's architecture which very clearly were a number of existing holes and concepts in golf previously that he (and others) considered famous and well respected. Those were in the linksland, perhaps some in the heathlands and those courses generally around the coast lines that were somewhat similar to the natural landforms of the linksland (coastal). Macdonald himself recorded all this pretty comprehensively in his book.

"And he did not just study Scottish golf holes...many of his models came from the south: Westward Ho!, Sunningdale, Brancaster, Sandwich, etc."

Agreed. What Macdonald studied for his architectural models has been very well recorded by Macdonald himself.

"I'm not sure your Willie Park - Macdonald theory is a good one either. Park did not pick the site at Sunningdale, and very little is known why he chose the Huntercombe site (over 600 acres)...although we do know he planned to build a hotel and did try a housing development (which failed)."

I don't think it's particularly important whether Park actually picked the site of Sunningdale. What's important is he recognized its potential for architecture and golf compared to what had come before it in inland England. What's most important at Sunningdale and Huntercombe regarding Park is what he created there and how and why---eg what he took as his models for the golf architecture he built there. Park was from the Scottish linksland and obviously recognized that he could begin to build in the Heathland architecture that far more closely matched the natural landforms of linksland golf.

You seem to suggest he took that inspiration and how to actually create what he did architecturally in the heathlands from some art form disciplines (the A/C movement) that had little or nothing to do with golf course architecture.

Just because a number of people who you say met each other and who were proponents of the A/C movement were around London does not in any real and direct way make a connection between the A/C movement and golf course architecture, and certainly much less that the A/C movement was a powerful influence on GCA in the heathlands and later.

Again, the literature of golf architecture assigns that powerful influence of early Golden Age architecture back to the natural landforms of the Scottish linksland. It even mentions how familiar those early Golden Age architects were with particularly TOC.

I, for one, do not think that literature is wrong, or even missing anything (some powerful influence heretofore not identified and explained).

[TEPaul]

I think it's also pretty interesting that you seem hesitant to even comment on the model of Capability Brown's massive "park" estates that became sites for inland English golf courses and the apparent use of his curvilinear "Serpentine" formations within them. That to me appears to be the first real direct connection between landscape architecture and golf course architecture. If that's the case, and it certainly appears to be, that would then be a real direct and probably powerful influence on golf architecture to come.

[TEPaul]

"Have you seen any early photos of the work of Colt, Fowler, Abercromby, Park, Low, Paton, MacKenzie or the NGLA?"

Yes I have, particularly early photos of NGLA and some parkland architecture from perhaps before NGLA. There are a number of photo albums in the big room at NGLA. I spent about three full days going carefully through all of them. From your short and one-time visit to NGLA I doubt you could've possibly had the time or the opportunity to do that. In my opinion, they shed a lot of light on how and why golf architecture evolved from around 1900 on.

[T_MacWood]

TE
How do you make this statement...

"Were they [Macdonald et al] natural looking or as natural looking as the architecture of Colt, Fowler, Abercrombie or particularly MacKenzie? I don't think there's any question they were not."

...if the only old photos you've seen are from the NGLA?

You wrote..."Did Macdonald decide to go to London and hang around those A/C people you keep promoting for golf architectural inspiration? No, he went back to Scotland and copied some holes and some concepts from them and brought them back and built them in America."

You were the one who suggested Macdonald was directly influenced by the A&C movement (see above), I wrote earlier on this thread that if he was influenced by A&C it was most likely an indirect influence. I was simply correcting your misunderstanding of some of the facts of this period, that in fact CB did go to London to hang out the Hutchinson, Low, Fowler, et al...to observe what was going on in golf architecture in the home counties. That he did much more than just go to Scotland.

It is very difficult for anyone to theorize what happened during this important period if they don't have a thorough understanding of the facts.

I think your Capability Brown theory is potentially very interesting...I think the lack of response is because you really haven't developed it completely. We are waiting on more precise info...like when, where, who, etc.

[TEPaul]

"TE
How do you make this statement...

"Were they [Macdonald et al] natural looking or as natural looking as the architecture of Colt, Fowler, Abercrombie or particularly MacKenzie? I don't think there's any question they were not."

...if the only old photos you've seen are from the NGLA?"

Tom MacWood:

I'm not real sure why you make an assumption like that. What makes you think I've never seen early photos of the architecure of Colt, Fowler, Abercrombie or particularly MacKenzie? I've got an awful lot of golf architecture books around here and there are numerous early photos of those architects and those courses. There've been plenty of old photos on this website alone. There are plenty at the USGA, and numerous other places

The time is probably well past when you need to stop acting like you're the only person who has done any research on old architecture. I know you're just dying to make a name for yourself somehow but assumptions and remarks like that probably aren't the way to go about it? Acting like you're the only one who's aware of some of that old architecture makes you sound either petty or just plain obtuse.  

What you need to do in the future is just stop that line of thinking, and stop your twenty questions routine and start engaging in some meaningful discussion about the history and evolutions of golf course architecture.

[TEPaul]

"You were the one who suggested Macdonald was directly influenced by the A&C movement (see above),"

Tom MacWood:

I did? I can't imagine why I would ever say something like that because I most certainly have never felt something like that to be true. Perhaps there was a typo in what I wrote? ;)Where above did I suggest Macdonald was directly influenced by the A/C Movement, or even slightly influenced by it?

[TEPaul]

"It is very difficult for anyone to theorize what happened during this important period if they don't have a thorough understanding of the facts."

A remark like that I would advise you to take to heart. You've attempted to assign some powerful influence on a period of golf architecture that largely IGNORES all the accumulated facts of golf architecture's previous literature that is quite comprehensive regarding the primary or most powerful influences on golf architecture. Your only apparent rationale for doing that is to proclaim that there is so much that is unknown. I'm not sure that is the case at all.

[TEPaul]

"I think your Capability Brown theory is potentially very interesting...I think the lack of response is because you really haven't developed it completely. We are waiting on more precise info...like when, where, who, etc."

That is absolutely true----I haven't developed it completely. Just the thought of how Brown's landscape design size and scale as well as his well-known "Serpentine" style might have been the initial connection of LA in GCA only occured to me recently. I don't think anyone has ever considered how Brown's LA style may have related to how landscape architecture began to connect to golf architecture up to a century after Brown himself.

Brown is credited with over 200 large scale landscape architecture designs---eg generally in what became known as "parks"---parkland landscape architecture.

One needs to analyze when and how some of his "parkland" LA designs were first used and utilized for early inland English golf courses. Apparently there were a number of his projects so utilized later for golf and golf courses.

Can the same thing be said, and to the same extent, and in the same ways for A/C landscape designs? Those are the important questions.

For starters a A/C landscape designer such as Gertrude Jekyll worked on a scale so much smaller than did a Lancelot Brown. The point is an entire full-blown golf course can be and was layed out within Brown's "Serpentine" LA designs. The same is not the case with a Jekyll LA design, such as what you referred to as a "wild" English cottage garden.

Brown's LA design style was not some amorphous, albeit pervasive "philosophy" without a name you claim the A/C Movement was. Brown's LA style was real, actual, on the ground, drawn, and it had an actual name---eg "Serpentine" that became the basis for what became known as "English Landscape Design or Architecture". It was also of a size and scale that could easily accomodate a golf course lay-out or routing. And apparently a good number of them did just that.

[T_MacWood]

TE
How do I know you haven't seen photos of Fowler, Colt, Abercromby's early work, I assumed that was the case after I asked you directly and you replied yes I'm familar with the old photos at the NGLA.

Obviosuly I'm not the only one who has researched old architecture, there are many others but I'm pretty sure you're not one of them.

Question: are you seriously trying to find a connection between Brown and golf architecture or are you trying to come up with any competing theory to A&C? The reason I ask is because of its the latter I think you might be going at this backward and that usually doesn't work.

No one claimed that A&C garden design directly influenced golf architecture....although Wethered & Simpson's chapter on the English Garden is thought provoking. (Have you read it?) What Brad Klein suggested was that A&C theory may have been disiminated by the writing of Jekyll and others. As you know the influence the A&C movement had on creative thought at the time was to promote an appreciation for home grown vernacular design...among other things.

Regarding your Brown theory, its potentially very interesting but the when, where, who, etc still appear to be missing.

[TEPaul]

""Have you seen any early photos of the work of Colt, Fowler, Abercromby, Park, Low, Paton, MacKenzie or the NGLA?"

Tom MacWood:

Go back to post #154. Do you see in the first sentence where I said,  "YES, I HAVE"?

Do you know what that means? It means, yes, I have seen early photos of the work of Colt, Fowler, Abercromby, Park, Low, Paton and Mackenzie. Do you see the comma after "YES I HAVE"? What that means is that I went on after answering your question if I'd seen early photos of those architects and I began talking about NGLA and those photo albums there.

[T_MacWood]

"Have you seen any early photos of the work of Colt, Fowler, Abercromby, Park, Low, Paton, MacKenzie or the NGLA?"

Yes I have, particularly early photos of NGLA and some parkland architecture from perhaps before NGLA. There are a number of photo albums in the big room at NGLA. I spent about three full days going carefully through all of them. From your short and one-time visit to NGLA I doubt you could've possibly had the time or the opportunity to do that. In my opinion, they shed a lot of light on how and why golf architecture evolved from around 1900 on.

Is the NGLA known for their archive of old photos documenting the work of Fowler, Colt, Abercromby, etc.? If so, my bad.

[TEPaul]

"Obviosuly I'm not the only one who has researched old architecture, there are many others but I'm pretty sure you're not one of them."

Well, then, Tom, you are just pretty surely as wrong as  you've been on a number of other things you seem to assume and conclude about architecture, including some restorations you've never even seen and the powerful influence of the A/C movement on the golf architecture of the Golden Age. As I've always said you seem to be a good researcher of material but what you deduce from that material is just incredibly bizarre. You try to make these connections where they simply don't exist factually and historically. I realize what you're trying to do----you're trying to make a name for yourself by identifying influences and such where you don't see that they've been identified before. Apparently you seem to think you're going to discover something heretofore unknown. The problem is there's just nothing there in fact or in the evolutionary history of golf architecture to support your assumptions and conclusions.

You want to talk about independent research? I'd put my theory that the landscape architecture of a Capability Brown had a far more powerful influence on golf architecture to come up against your theory of the influence of the A/C movement on GCA any day.

At least I have the direct connection of the "parkland" style golf course to Brown's massively landscaped English "parks" to point to as a fact in the evolution of golf architecture. What do you have to point to as a direct connection between the A/C movement and GCA.

And don't hand me the concept of naturalism again----the natural formations of the linksland pertained directly to golf and they ALSO PRECEDED the A/C movement by hundreds of years.  

By trying to assign such a powerful influence on GCA from the A/C movement you aren't just trying to connect things that don't really connect, you are also attempting to minimize the real and factual powerful influence on the golf architecture of the Golden Age---the linksland, particularly TOC.

[TEPaul]

"Is the NGLA known for their archive of old photos documenting the work of Fowler, Colt, Abercromby, etc.? If so, my bad."

No it is not and I never said anything like that. What I said is "YES, I HAVE" seen early photos of the architecture of Colt, Abercromby, MacKenzie, Paton, Low et al. It would help, I'm sure, if you learned how to read properly

Then I used a comma and went on to explain the photos albums that are at NGLA that show tons of old photos of NGLA. But there happens to be a photo album at NGLA with some very early photos that shows a number of men and women swinging golf clubs on what appears to be a massive landscaped designed estate, perhaps in England, perhaps of Lancelot Brown. There doesn't appear there's a golf course in those photos, just a massive English estate where a course could by layed right through.  
 
 

[T_MacWood]

----the natural formations of the linksland pertained directly to golf and they preceded the A/C movement by hundreds of years.  

Precisely! And the middle age gardens that were the models for Jekyll & company preceded the A&C movement by a couple years, and the vernacular architecture that influenced Lutyens, Voysey, etc preceded them by a couple hundred years, and the vernacular crafts that inspired Ashbee, Morris, Crane etc preceded them by a couple hundred years,...

Do you see the pattern?

[john_stiles]

Ahhhh, back to the top of the list where it belongs, versus all this Ryder Cup and Wie material.

I have read through TomMac's enlightening discussion of A&CM/GCA several times.  Will print it out for safe keeping.  Skimmed through Hunter's Links book again last night.

Absent some references to Repton and Brown,   where have any of the English GCAs or early American GCAs discussed the influence of A/C ?

Many early American GCAs go on and on about this hole from Scotland or England, about this bunker or that hazard.  Many early American articles and American GCAs go on and on about the trips to see basically the golf holes in Scotland and England.

What early GCA writings point directly to their love and appreciation of  A&CM or landscape architecture ?

Are there any LCA texts discussing their influence on parkland GCA ?


Anyone,

Point me somewhere for more text on A&CM influence on GCA. I would appreciate that !   Would like to have some reading material for cold rainy fall afternoons.

Are there any reviews of golf courses by English landscape architects (or whatever they would have been labeled) in that time of parkland explosion ?   Any reviews of the landscape work by the golf architects plans and plantings ?

Were there any collaborative efforts between GCAs and LCAs in early English parkland work ?

Did they just choose the parkland estates of the rich, when the rich were becoming enlighted about golf, because the land was there, had manicured parkland areas, and you could easily set up a golf course ?  After all, some artificial hazards could quickly be established.

I really do not see a pattern yet when only those who could play the game started designing the courses ?   Many who would become architects went to see TOC and Old Tom Morris.  What would Tom say to those who visited about LCA ?

Were any LCAs (or whatever the profession was called) involved in any golf course work ?

I read where many architects certainly went by and viewed Pine Valley at Crump's request.    Did Crump invite any LCAs to get their views ?

Thanks

[TEPaul]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: TEPaul on Today at 01:11:22pm
----"the natural formations of the linksland pertained directly to golf and they preceded the A/C movement by hundreds of years."  

 
 

"Precisely! And the middle age gardens that were the models for Jekyll & company preceded the A&C movement by a couple years, and the vernacular architecture that influenced Lutyens, Voysey, etc preceded them by a couple hundred years, and the vernacular crafts that inspired Ashbee, Morris, Crane etc preceded them by a couple hundred years,...

Do you see the pattern?"

Yes, I do Tom, and it's all very interesting when it comes to gardens and vernacular "crafts" and such.

But the huge differerence which you have apparently failed to recognize since I've been discussing this subject with you is  those middle age GARDENS were the models for Jekyll and company ET AL who were 19th century LANDSCAPE GARDENERS and not golf course architects. Those middle aged GARDENS that preceded the A/C movement by hundreds of years perhaps were influential to Ashbee, Morris and Crane and VERNACULAR CRAFTS. But those things aren't golf or golf architecture and Morris, Ashbee and Crane had nothing to do with golf or golf architecture.

What I am talking about, however, is the natural formations of the linksland, such as TOC that preceded golf course architecture itself by hundreds of years. I'm talking about a model that GOLF was played on for hundreds of years before Golf architecture began on that very GOLF site.

Perhaps you are under some impression that this website is about GARDENS or VERNACULAR CRAFTS.

Check out the front page again, Tom----this website is about GOLF ARCHITECTURE AND GOLF, not GARDENS and CRAFTS.

Perhaps you never understood that. Frankly, that wouldn't surprise me at all.  

Nevertheless, just point out one SPECIFIC thing about golf architecture that was ever directly influenced by the Arts and Crafts movement and those art forms with which it directly had to do.

At least I'm pointing out just those things that had to do with GOLF ITSELF that preceded golf course architeture---eg the Scottish LINKSLAND!!

[TEPaul]

"Absent some references to Repton and Brown,  where have any of the English GCAs or early American GCAs discussed the influence of A/C ?"

John:

I keep asking that of MacWood but he claims that doesn't matter---that that isn't relevent because the A/C Movement was this massive "Philosophy" that really didn't have a name and which most in golf architecture of the Golden Age wouldn't have mentioned for that reason.

He also said that one shouldn't really look to what those who practiced architecture back then thought of what they were doing and what influenced them because they may not have even known. He maintains that what influenced them is up to historians to mention that came long after them. Historians, I guess, like Tom MacWood.  

I should also point out John, that Tom MacWood has mentioned on this very thread that most all of the A/C movement proponents hated Brown and his particular landscape design style. Apparently they thought it too simple and not natural enough.  

[TEPaul]

John:

Regarding the second half of your post---

One must remember that if there was some connection to Lancelot Brown and golf course architecture that Brown died (1783) a good long time before man-made golf architecture even began (around 1848).

That golf inland in England used his massive landscape designed Serpentine "park" estates was clearly happenstance and a series of coincidences. Nevertheless, use them they did.

This is probably not that much different from the way golf evolved only in the Scottish linksland itself. That land---the linksland---basically had no competition from any other interest. It couldn't be used for farming as it was far too acidic. Ironically, that acidity permitted little agronomic competition for two strains of grass that prospered in it---agrostis (bent) and festuca (fescue). More ironically, those two grasses just happened to be almost perfect for the playing of golf which in the 18th century and before could really only be played in the cold weather and winter months as it grew too long in the warmer months and got beyond the ability of rabbits and sheep to control it.

So these things were often just happenstance and coincidence. But there doesn't seem to be any happenstance or coincidental connection between golf architecture at any time and the Arts and Crafts movement other than some concurrency in time. But as we all know, concurrency in time does not always make for a connection, much less a powerful influence.  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Only on this site would you get page after page of erudite (well, some of it might be) discussion about something so very English between people from another shore who know FAR more about it than all but a handful of Angles.  

Still, we managed a jolly good French bean crop this year, the apples and plums have been plentiful.  Mind you, the lawn has been wrecked (by badgers coming into the garden every night).  Our garden design is inflicted on us by the badgers, foxes, our dog and our ducks if they get out of their run.  Do you think it will make a good golf course some day (about 1/3 of an acre)?

[T_MacWood]

Absent some references to Repton and Brown,   where have any of the English GCAs or early American GCAs discussed the influence of A/C ?

Many early American GCAs go on and on about this hole from Scotland or England, about this bunker or that hazard.  Many early American articles and American GCAs go on and on about the trips to see basically the golf holes in Scotland and England.

 

John
You won't find any mention of the A&C movement in any of the golf books or magazines of that period for the same reason you won't find any mention of the A&C movement in any of the books on architecture or garden design or city planning....it was an aesthetic movement that was not identified by historians until long after it was over.

What you will find is exactly what you said above about their appreciation for the naturally evolved links. Thats the point of this discusion (and my essay), trying to indentify or explain why the golf architects at the turn of the century (in and around London) changed course from the formulaic Victorian model to designs that more resembled the classic links.

The links were the prime influence...the A&C movement, which promoted vernacular designs across a wide spectrum of arts and crafts, was the catalyst.

[T_MacWood]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: TEPaul on Today at 01:11:22pm
----"the natural formations of the linksland pertained directly to golf and they preceded the A/C movement by hundreds of years."  

 
 

"Precisely! And the middle age gardens that were the models for Jekyll & company preceded the A&C movement by a couple years, and the vernacular architecture that influenced Lutyens, Voysey, etc preceded them by a couple hundred years, and the vernacular crafts that inspired Ashbee, Morris, Crane etc preceded them by a couple hundred years,...

Do you see the pattern?"

Yes, I do Tom, and it's all very interesting when it comes to gardens and vernacular "crafts" and such.

But the huge differerence which you have apparently failed to recognize since I've been discussing this subject with you is  those middle age GARDENS were the models for Jekyll and company ET AL who were 19th century LANDSCAPE GARDENERS and not golf course architects. Those middle aged GARDENS that preceded the A/C movement by hundreds of years perhaps were influential to Ashbee, Morris and Crane and VERNACULAR CRAFTS. But those things aren't golf or golf architecture and Morris, Ashbee and Crane had nothing to do with golf or golf architecture.

What I am talking about, however, is the natural formations of the linksland, such as TOC that preceded golf course architecture itself by hundreds of years. I'm talking about a model that GOLF was played on for hundreds of years before Golf architecture began on that very GOLF site.

Perhaps you are under some impression that this website is about GARDENS or VERNACULAR CRAFTS.

Check out the front page again, Tom----this website is about GOLF ARCHITECTURE AND GOLF, not GARDENS and CRAFTS.

Perhaps you never understood that. Frankly, that wouldn't surprise me at all.  

Nevertheless, just point out one SPECIFIC thing about golf architecture that was ever directly influenced by the Arts and Crafts movement and those art forms with which it directly had to do.

At least I'm pointing out just those things that had to do with GOLF ITSELF that preceded golf course architeture---eg the Scottish LINKSLAND!!

Why would golf architects be immune from the influence of the A&C movement. They worked and lived among the people cited above. Not only did they work among them, they worked directly with many of them.

The entire culture from music to garden design to furniture design to home decorating to city planning was affected by this revival idea...and not only did this aesthetic movement promote looking back to vernacular designs it was also very interested in unifying the arts and crafts.

What is inherently different or unique about golf course design that would preclude it from this cultural influence? Do you think golf architecture should be segregated from the other arts or maybe not considered an art at all? Didn't the golf architects of that period consider golf architecture an art?

[T_MacWood]

Perhaps you are under some impression that this website is about GARDENS or VERNACULAR CRAFTS.

Check out the front page again, Tom----this website is about GOLF ARCHITECTURE AND GOLF, not GARDENS and CRAFTS.

Perhaps you never understood that. Frankly, that wouldn't surprise me at all.  

Nevertheless, just point out one SPECIFIC thing about golf architecture that was ever directly influenced by the Arts and Crafts movement and those art forms with which it directly had to do.

At least I'm pointing out just those things that had to do with GOLF ITSELF that preceded golf course architeture---eg the Scottish LINKSLAND!!

Precisely! Slowly but surely you're coming around. Although you still don't quite have a grasp on how the A&C Movement acted as a catalyst.

An unfortunate reaction by you regarding what this site is about (does that mean we won't be reading about Steeplechase courses and Capability Brown in the future)....you need to open your mind and expand your vision. Perhaps it may be time to apply for a library card and read up on the subject. I understand your summer home was English vernacular but books can be informative as well. It really was a fascinating period.  

[TEPaul]

"An unfortunate reaction by you regarding what this site is about (does that mean we won't be reading about Steeplechase courses and Capability Brown in the future)...."

Tom MacWood:

I doubt it because even though you apparently haven't figured it out yet they did have a direct and provable influence on golf architecture, something that unfortunately cannot yet be said for the Arts and Crafts movement in Victorian England.

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