News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Tommy_Naccarato

The Retreat, Corona, California
« on: August 31, 2006, 07:26:00 PM »
Before we go on any further, there is nothing minimal about the site of The Retreat. Sitting on the edge of the Clevland National Forest, next door to the Todd Eckenrode-designed, Eagle Glen, this site was about as inhospitable to golf that I have ever seen.

The purpose of posting these photos is simply to show how an architect can sometimes be faced with one of the most difficult of challenges. The Retreat.

The Retreat is, and as the images will indicate, a sporty golf course faced with many challenges. Most of all of them vertically. In fact, I would call it the poster child of vertical golf. But this is the real world. The Retreat is a master planned community which means that housing, schools and parks take a precedence over golf on all accounts. I usually call this throwing all common sense out the window. Because of maturity, and mostly the economy, I don't fault the designer either. In fact, it would be hard to fault the developer also. He was just maximizing his investment, regardless of what I think!

The housing at the Retreat ranges from, and this is a guess, mid-size starter homes (which means they are unaffordable) to somewhat more lavish, more grandiose homes for the executive. (which means that are totally unaffordable.) Taking a guess, I'm going to say anywhere from $650,000-$1.5 Million. Once again, this is a guess of current "new" SoCal housing prices. figure your 45 minutes to an 1 hour away from Newport Beach, via the ridiculous toll roads through some of the most beautiful natural places in Orange County.

So with all of that, one, without knowing many facts of the golf course itself, can figure out what is going to be going on there. Once again, the site is nearly inhospitable for golf.

Surprisingly, the Nicklaus Group, sold as a Bill Leary design have created something that should be a study by any architectural enthusiast. In fact, I don't think many could have done much better.  to sum it all up in one nutshell, I have never been on a course that made me, and I'm talking me--the somewhat short knocker--take the driver out of my hands effectively.

I know what your all thinking! Scary isn't it?!?!

But the fact is this site was going to be one that HAD to do that. I found myself throughout the round using fairway woods for half shots to get some upward pop on the ball, to even using six irons from 20 yards away. Playing from the blue tees, playing as a 469 yard downhill then uphill par 5, I played 5 wood, 5 wood, lob wedge, after pulling my second shot into the abyss of whatever lay between it and the hole. After holing out a downhill 10 footer, I still managed a bogie six to save myself.

On the downhill, cross-bunkered, 17th, I hit 3 wood, 4 iron and had less then 40 yards in.

Again, I made bogie. All of it was due to arrogant play on my part!

So, I ask myself, Is this the way golf was meant to be played?

Reminding myself of the heat stroke-affected comment Bob Huntley made during the King's Putter Cup, "this is the type of course they should be making Skilling & Lay play during their incarcerations...." Heaven's no, but the thing is they have created a pretty dramatic looking and fun course to play making the best out of a horrible piece of land, albeit a dramatic one--that really beautiful site. So, if I'm going to jail, then I hope the jailhouse course presents some certain challenges, just like The Retreat!

To the architecture nut or aficionado like myself, it would be a mistake to avoid this golf course. There is much to learn when presented with similar situations and cut the designers some slack.

There are also some certain features here that pulled off inspirations from certain course I'm thinking of, where blindness, as well as sportsmanship are key. These factors make up for a enticing challenge. While the unknowledgable, unschooled golfer will praise the difficulty, or what looks like difficulty, many will also condemn it simply because it makes them think and doesn't allow them to use the greed stick(driver) on most every hole. The course is more then user friendly, in fact, it's the friendliest, hilliest course I've ever played.

In the big world things of Golf Architecture, I can't think of a more refreshing change, albeit one you can only hope works in the minds of the developers to develop better golf sites, more hospitable to the situation.

Below is a view up the canyon of holes #2, 3, 4 and partial of the 6th. the images following it, the approach on the 3rd, which is the hole with the tree directly in back of the green. This green is a shallow one and it puckers your petard thinking how your going to hold it. the image following it taken directly from the 4th tee looking at the green from the left, showing the fun putting contours throughout the course.
#10--




The 4th, a 180 yard uphill (185 for us, from the tips, 201) par 3 which I played my favorite shot of the day, off of the side of the hill. It reminded me of what the shot at the famed 16th @ George Thomas' La Cumbre must have been like. the green was pretty cool too. mind you an two-tiered number that had you dancing on the tee at the sight of your golf ball dancing on the green.



The approach and the green of the par 4, 6th, the first hole one can really go at with a driver! Still it  was interesting because playing like that made one feel so much different. I mean, how may golf course can anyone think of where Joe Hack is not hitting a driver till the 6th?(Now that I'm thinking of it, i did hit driver off of the 1st hole, but wouldn't do it the next time!)

If your right and don't make the ridge, then you have a blind second to a green-site that is protected by a finger of hill that guards the left. The green runs left to right, and if Jim Lipe is reading, I would say that cutting down the Bermuda jungle and the drainage swale that are left of the green as a much more daring and harrowing play. I know this from experience! (I simply flopped a wedge to two feet and made par, only after a really good shot short right of the ridge in the fairway 220 yards away!) A really fun hole.



The 5th green from upon high.



Following images in order: The 7th, 8tjh, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th & 15th. the stars here are the uphill 11th and the entertaining 15th, which for the most parts is a Redan par 4, reachable from the tee for a really long hitter. I'm not 100% sure if the blinding Redan kicker is in the right place, but the hole is certainly fun to play. the green isn't so much sloped as it is a reverse two-tier number that works effectively.








« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 07:55:29 PM by Tommy Naccarato »

Matt_Ward

Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2006, 07:34:39 PM »
Tommy:

You sealed it -- I've got to get either a digital camera or rent you out to take my photos when I play !

Great stuff -- how long has the course been opened ?

Do they get a lot of play now or do you see the severe site undercutting that possibility down the road ?

Thanks ...

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2006, 08:01:30 PM »
Matt,
Some of those photos are actually two shots I stitched together, one I spent some time on and the other very minimal. I also had to knock the color down a bit because they wouldn't fit on Photobucket. (where they would come out small)

Get the camera Matt, You won't regret it!

I believe the course has been opened since about June. It's actually a private club, but from my understanding they have been selling memberships at $45,000. How many, I don't exactly know. The club is run by Troon Golf.

Arbs,
It isn't a course one would go out of their way for. It is worth it if you live in the SoCal area to experience it. Most here would not care for it, but I have to tell you I was entertained.

I have found myself wanting to get back there since I played it. In fact, using the Mucci Sclale of walking (or in the case of the Retreat--riding!) from the 18th green to the 1st tee, I would do it in a heart beat, but only after a cool refreshment or beverage!

« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 08:04:12 PM by Tommy Naccarato »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2006, 08:03:28 PM »
Mr. Dodger Blue -

The photos don't look nearly as bad as your soliloquy suggests ... nice cart paths though ... and the orange fences are to stop balls from rolling into the ESAs?

Mr. Gigantes
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2006, 08:05:20 PM »
I thought maybe it was a co-design between Jack and Christo.

I hear he'll work with anybody now.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 08:05:54 PM by Tom_Doak »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2006, 08:09:49 PM »
Mr. Gigantas, (Mr. Negro con Naranga)(Black and Orange)

I would suspect most would just have their jaws drop when they saw some of the holes. The images don't show the entire scale. (verticle)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2006, 08:13:39 PM »
Tommy, you are so right about #4, it does look almost exactly like #16 (now #8) at La Cumbre must have looked before the barranca face collapsed in front of the green and they filled it in to the right edge of the fairway so you can play a run up shot today.  At 185 yards, that's about the max the second shot would have played after any kind of tee ball in the fairway.  Even today with the barranca filled in, #8 is a butt puckerer, a hole where you play your second to the left side of the green and hope to scuttle away with your four or at worst a bogey.  

I don't know when the barranca was filled in, but it was just like now in the early '60s when it was home course for UCSB.

The Reserve looks pretty fun on that site, but those cart paths - wow.  :-\
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 08:14:47 PM by Bill_McBride »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2006, 08:22:26 PM »
Tom,
Never thought about Christo, but I know he does work in California. He loves the Golden State's palate!

Bill,
Given the Bermuda roughs, I played a knock em' down smash 3 wood into the hill by design. I played the shot perfectly, as it rolled on to the green top level, only to see it roll off down tot he lower teir. I have not one problem with that! I started thinking to myself--as I did on the tee and in the fairway of the 2nd and 3rd holes, only after I got over the fact I was debating to hit driver or 3 wood off of the tee at #1--I have to hit some shots here!

It was certainly refreshing of what I was expecting. Now mind you I knew of Todd Eckenrode's experience with the site as well as Ted Robinson's and half of the other architects that looked at it.


JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2006, 08:40:16 PM »
Tommy,

Ah, but were your petards puckered *before* or *after* you plunked down the escrow on one of those beautiful greenside con-DOEminyums?

I'm goin back to Cali, to Cali...

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2006, 10:17:40 PM »
Sorry Tommy but this looks like a cross between DeBell and MountainGate.  Did you walk 18 or 27?
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2006, 12:31:08 AM »
this looks like a cross between DeBell and MountainGate.

It's a SoCal margarita of a golf course.

A salted rim of La Cañada CC, a couple of jiggers of Tierra Rejada, and a twist of Moorpark.

I prefer a different swill, thanks.

Doug Ralston

Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2006, 08:43:19 AM »
What IS the obsession with your 'driver'? If you have 14 clubs in your bag, and one is a putter, shouldn't shots not on the green include them all in reasonable proportion?

Perhaps driver on one hole in three is about right?

And there they go about the cartpaths again!  ::) I really have come to believe half those here want the World to be flat! Perhaps then it would match their imaginations?

And listen to ME. Seems most of what I do here is complain about what YOU do here. *bonk self*

Doug

PS: Lovely pix. I, for one, would obviously enjoy this type of course. Thanks

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2006, 10:33:35 AM »
looks ok to me..I hope I can play it someday!

thanks for posting Emperor
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2006, 01:10:30 PM »
Doug,
To some extent, I couldn't agree more. That's why I call it the, Greed Stick. However, some of us just don't hit the ball that far off of the tee, even with the technology. I think the thing I have benefited the most from technology is that I hit the ball straighter and more consistent by almost double then I did before, and the Greed Stick has never been much of a problem for me other then lack of length.

On a more personal note, when I started playing the Game, I weighed 168 pounds. Over a 25 year period of time, I didn't just ballon, I gargantuated to 501 pounds (that's not a typo) thanks to an compulsive eating disorder. During those years, I never once lost much length off of my drives, So I got older, FATTER, and just completely unhealthy where my life was at stake and yet, I hit the ball the very same length, if not longer.

So what does this have to do with hitting shorter clubs off of the tee at the Retreat, if not just any golf course? Well, when it comes to downsizing, or going down a club, for a player like myself it just didn't make much sense because my strengths, or lack of them off of the tee. Instead I try to rely on a attiquite short game and putter to get me by. However, looking back at my round at the Retreat, I found myself having to hit shorter clubs to stay out of trouble simply because driver was out of the question due to the terrain. There was just nothing the designers could do to get by it, and Lynn, if you should be reading htis, I thought of DeBell a lot while I was out there because it's done in a similar fashion--however, I tend to get a kick out of DeBell. It's sporty fun in the Big World of Golf Course Architecture. (going along with Tom Paul's theories on the subject)

Simply put, it was fun to hit clubs I don't normally hit off of the tee, and even more fun that I was thinking of strategies of how to get there while doing it--much more then I would have come to expect for a course so horribly situated on the side of a hill. while my like of the course was more of a personal nature in relation to my own Game or how I go about playing the Sport, I can say that The Retreat had me thinking I was better then I was when I was welcomed to hit shots that looked risky, yet provided plenty of room for error yet disguised that to still make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I don't think The Retreat is going to get high marks from raters & panelists, let alone good remarks from people like Joe, Lynn and Shivas who are quick to discount it. But architecturally speaking, as bad of a site as it may in fact be, the course for me was fun to play and I look forward to a return visit.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a GREAT course, but it certainly isn't a mediocre one.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2006, 02:57:20 PM »
Tommy: Very cool stuff but can I ask one question and I am doing so perhaps out of ignorance - Were they trying to make some sort of statement by leaving that one solitary tree standing behind the third green - are they saying that there were dozens more that they cut down or are they saying look at us, the environmentally sensitive golf course architects, we saved a tree?  

Matt_Ward

Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2006, 03:58:41 PM »
Tommy:

To give me some context -- where would you place The Retreat in terms of other courses in the SoCal area. Is it among the top 20-25% to give you some guidance.

One last thing - next time I'm in the SoCal area would it be worth visiting to play or is it nothing more than a place that looks great in pictures.

Your guidance is appreciated.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2006, 10:23:08 PM »
Matt,
Interesting question, but the obvious is that this course isn't going to win any favor with many purists like myself--even though I enjoyed it.

But there hasn't been much built since your last visit.

Someday send me a list of courses you have seen and haven't seen in SoCal and I'll give you the 411 which you can look over and decide form there.

Jerry,
I had similar thoughts regarding the use of the tree. But like the rest of the course, it too is worthy of architecturally study. It's certainly a very BIG tree, and while it looks as of its not natural to the area, I wouldn't have a clue if it was actually placed there or not. My thoughts were, and I said this to Scott Burroughs, or perhaps he said it to me during our round there that the hole needed some back drop, and a bit of character. It isn't totally out of place, but it certainly is odd seeing one lone tree out there. From tee to green, that hole is a fun one to play. At least for me!

Michael Robin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2006, 12:44:39 AM »
Tommy -

I thought there was a lot to like about the place. Something that I thought might make it more palatable was if they reversed the nines. The first 5 holes are so difficult that your round could be a disaster before you get loose, whereas if you start on the other side, you have had a fun gradual start with which to build your confidence before you turn and face the wrath of 2-5. I also thought the 9th & 18th should be reversed.

Whaddya think?

MR.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2006, 01:29:38 AM »
Michael,
 Scott and I discussed the same once we got to the 10th, but the logical thing would be to switch 9 & 18 to toughen it up a bit.

#18 while uphill wasn't really all that hard. I parred it, after hitting a fairly decent drive then pulling my second left. I found that the chip I hit, a running 6 iron that scampered across the green to two feet was a chalenge, but over-all for a better player, sort of a put you to sleep finisher, with the 9th being a much better hole for challenging a golfer or important hole in a match or press.

Matt_Ward

Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2006, 11:38:54 AM »
Tommy:

I have played nearly all the prime time candidates. No need to send you a letter -- just let me know if the layout is among the top 20-25% of the courses you have played in the region and does it merit, in your humble opinion, a possible visit because of what it does offer architecturally ?

I may have missed it previously -- but is there a Web address for the facility ?

Many thanks ...

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2006, 11:42:54 AM »
Matt,
No, it is not in the Top 20-25% of prime candidates.


Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2008, 06:42:06 PM »
Matt Ward,

Here is that link... http://www.championsclubretreat.com/

I played there last week, and had a thoroughly enjoyable time.  Tommy's comments above are pretty spot-on...a very difficult piece of property to build a course on, and they came through with flying colors.

BTW...due to (recent) rough economic times the course went semi-private about 3-4 months ago so the public is now welcome out to play at some fairly reasonable rates (by California standards).  It was quite interesting to see every other house with a sign in their yard which read "bank owned" or "foreclosure" on it.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 06:43:50 PM by Evan_Fleisher »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 12.2. Have 24 & 21 year old girls and wife of 27 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2008, 02:05:40 AM »
Over a month ago, there were at least 40 homes in distress sales, and it has only gotten worse.  The word from many of the locals (not purists, just the paying folk ;) )  is "played the Retreat, interesting place, really don't want to go back.  The private end of things failed, largely just bad timing in this market, but also, just simply a course not many have said they want to play day in/day out.  When they went public *(semi private) they were very busy for a short burst of time, but the numbers are way off, and they are discounting pretty aggressively.
One of our board members was about to make an offer on a house for about $490000. but decided to wait for a further price drop.  The same home sold for over 1.1 mil when the community opened a couple years ago! :'(
The Inland Empire is in a free fall right now, with many course in deep economic trouble

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Retreat, Corona, California
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2008, 10:17:57 PM »
Didn't Barak have a hand in this — it seems to "change" at every turn?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back