[Brian Cenci]

After finishing off my "to do" list of the last of Michigan's top publics that I haven't played, I thought I'd post to start another "to do" list.  

Of Michigan's top public courses, here's my top 25 from what I've played (I've put them in order of my favorite):

1-Arcadia Bluffs
2-Greywalls
3-Eagle Eye
4-Forest Dunes
5-Bay Harbor
6-Lakewod Shores - Gailes
7-Tullymore
8-Shephard's Hollow
9-Red Hawk
10-Angel's Crossing
11-Black Forest at Wilderness Valley
12-Black Lake
13-Yarrow Golf and Conference Center
14-Bucks Run
15-Westwynd
16-Pilgrim's Run
17-Thoroughbred
18-The Orchards
19-Boyne Highlands - Heather
20-High Pointe
21-College Fields
22-Forest Akers(West)
23-The Heathlands
24-Champion Hills
25-Grand Traverse Resort (Bear)

The only course I'd really like to play would be Belvedere and Timberstone that are sort of on my "to do".

Suggestions / comments?

[Tom_Doak]

Brian:

The problem with such lists is that you are trying to split hairs -- every course between #3 and #25 on your list might be a 6 on the Doak scale, so someone else with different tastes could have them completely opposite of your own order.

[Chris_Blakely]

Brain / Tom:

Whether or not #'s 3 through 25 on your list are or are not 6's, 5's, etc. on the Doak scale or not is not important.   I agree that these lists are always going to be subjective and tilted towards the likes/dislikes of the raters/creators of the list(s).  I think the goal of these lists is to attemp to group the top 25, 50, 75, 100, etc. courses in one state/the country together, so that others can find out about other good to decent public courses in the state / country (whatever the focus of the list is).  The natural response is to mentally go over the courses you have played and see where you would place them in the list.

When I looked at this list, several things jumped out at me: why did I choose to play the crappy course I did last year (took a chance and was wrong) over High Pointe.  Where is Champion Hill, I have not heard of this course, it might be decent.  I need to look into it.

That being said, I thought is was a good public golf course list for the state.

Have you played any of the following?  And if so, should they crack the top 25?

The Mines GC
True North GC
Marywood CC
Calderone Farms GC
The Medalist GC
Wild Bluff GC

The only course had a question about was Bucks Run?  Did you really like Bucks Run that much?  I thought most of the front 9 was really quite bland (8 and 9) excluded.  The back 9 was good (excluding holes 10 and 11).

Thanks,
Chris

[Matt_Ward]

Brian:

Quick question -- how many times have you played the courses on your listing -- especially the top ten ?

Thanks ...

P.S. I'll follow-up when you answer.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Brian,

A few opinions (if you don't mind!):  

1. High Pointe's closer to #1 than #20 (and, so is Pilgrim's Run);

2. You gotta get down to Grand Rapids to see The Mines; and,

3. The Gailes is more fun to play on a windy day when the ball's bouncing than any other course on your list!

I haven't been to Belvedere yet either. I'm really looking forward to visiting in the near future.

[plabatt]

Brian

Westwynd has lost their greens to an incorrect chemical application.  Rumor is they are now closed and resodding.
Peter

[Chris_Blakely]

That rumor about Westwynd’s greens is true.  The course is currently closed indefinitely for resoding.

[Ryan Heiman]

I really enjoyed my round at

Lakewood Shores-Blackshire.

According to them very Pine Valley like.  I don't know haven't played pine valley, but the Blackshire is tons of fun.

[Yancey_Beamer]

Belvedere is quite special.Play it.

[Brian Cenci]

Brian:

Quick question -- how many times have you played the courses on your listing -- especially the top ten ?

Thanks ...

P.S. I'll follow-up when you answer.

Matt,
     I've played the following # of rounds (approximately) of each of the courses in my top 10:

1-Arcadia = 5 rounds
2-Greywalls = 9 rounds
3-Eagle Eye = 20 rounds
4-Forest Dunes = 3 rounds
5-Bay Harbor = 1 round (before it opened to the public)
6-Lakewood Shores (Gailes) = 3 rounds
7-Tullymore = 1 round
8-Shephard's Hollow = 1 round
9-Red Hawk = 1 round
10-Angel's Crossing = 1 round

[Brian Cenci]

Brain / Tom:

Whether or not #'s 3 through 25 on your list are or are not 6's, 5's, etc. on the Doak scale or not is not important.   I agree that these lists are always going to be subjective and tilted towards the likes/dislikes of the raters/creators of the list(s).  I think the goal of these lists is to attemp to group the top 25, 50, 75, 100, etc. courses in one state/the country together, so that others can find out about other good to decent public courses in the state / country (whatever the focus of the list is).  The natural response is to mentally go over the courses you have played and see where you would place them in the list.

When I looked at this list, several things jumped out at me: why did I choose to play the crappy course I did last year (took a chance and was wrong) over High Pointe.  Where is Champion Hill, I have not heard of this course, it might be decent.  I need to look into it.

That being said, I thought is was a good public golf course list for the state.

Have you played any of the following?  And if so, should they crack the top 25?

The Mines GC
True North GC
Marywood CC
Calderone Farms GC
The Medalist GC
Wild Bluff GC

The only course had a question about was Bucks Run?  Did you really like Bucks Run that much?  I thought most of the front 9 was really quite bland (8 and 9) excluded.  The back 9 was good (excluding holes 10 and 11).

Thanks,
Chris

Chris,
     I have not played any of the list you provided.  Although at some point I plan on playing The Mines.  Bucks Run I think has 9 or so good holes and 9 or so average holes.  You're correct in that there are a few on the front 9 that are pretty plain, but there are several holes that stick out to me on the course that make it a good course to play.  Really #12 through #20 are hard to rank in my mind because they are similar.
     As far as Champion Hills, that is more of a sentimental pick.  Is it top 25...probably not.  But, it is fun to play and everyone who plays it likes it.  It's gotten some high praise from even a friend of mine from Crystal Downs as well.  It is located in Benzonia, Michigan about a half hour west of Traverse City.

[Brian Cenci]

Brian,

A few opinions (if you don't mind!):  

1. High Pointe's closer to #1 than #20 (and, so is Pilgrim's Run);

2. You gotta get down to Grand Rapids to see The Mines; and,

3. The Gailes is more fun to play on a windy day when the ball's bouncing than any other course on your list!

I haven't been to Belvedere yet either. I'm really looking forward to visiting in the near future.

Jeff,
     I agree that the Gailes is a great course.  But, I played it two years ago and it was #2 on my list.  It dropped this last year when I played it because I felt the course was in poor shape.  Maybe I picked a bad weekend or whatever, but the sod bunkers weren't clean cut like I remember them before.  The heather wasn't grown in very well and it didn't have the same feeling I got when I had played it before.  That being said, a course like Forest Dunes moved up on my list because it was in such great shape when I played it this year.

-Brian

[PThomas]

Brian :  pls tell me why Eagle Eye is so good ...haven't played it yet, but maybe you can convince me!

and arent there 2 courses there?

[Jfaspen]

I really enjoyed my round at

Lakewood Shores-Blackshire.

According to them very Pine Valley like.  I don't know haven't played pine valley, but the Blackshire is tons of fun.

I had the same thought today..  It has a PV look to some of the holes, but shouldn't be confused (based on what I've seen of PV via photos).  

I'm thinking of trying to arrange a fall golf trip to gailes/blackshire for october.. one of the best deals in michigan golf.

jf

[Jfaspen]

Brian :  pls tell me why Eagle Eye is so good ...haven't played it yet, but maybe you can convince me!

and arent there 2 courses there?

Eagle Eye is part of the Hawk Hollow development.. Hawk Hollow (located across the street) has 27 holes, most of which are forgettable.  The finish on the original 18 is nice curling around a lake with a heroesque approach to the 18th.  

An enjoyable course, and nice for the area.

Jeff

[Brian Cenci]

Brian :  pls tell me why Eagle Eye is so good ...haven't played it yet, but maybe you can convince me!

and arent there 2 courses there?

Paul,
     Eagle Eye is the true definition of "growing on you".  When I first played it I was very much in to a "minimalist" philosophy in golf course design.  This course it not that.  The wind is always blowing and the par 3's are the best in the state IMO (any course, public or private).  It was designed by Chris Lutzke, who worked with Pete Dye for a number of years.  It has a Pete Dye feel to the whole course as well (cape holes, railroad ties, use of water as edging).  I just think it has more unique holes and challenging holes than almost any other public course.  
     Like I said, the par 3's are spectacular (not even considering the fact that most of the attention is on the island green #17 which is a replica of TPC-Sawgrass (apparently within 3" of the actual island green at TPC)).  The par 4's to note that are great are #3, #6, #11, #13, #15 and #16.  And, all the par 5's, especially #9 and #18 are solid.  #9 might be my favorite par 5 in the state.
     It might not be most peoples cup of tea because each hole is basically in it's own world.  Gaurded by large mounds that seperate the holes.
     There are two courses...the other being Hawk Hollow, which is across the street.  Hawk Hollow is solid too.
     It is a beast also from the tips.  7318 yards with a 76.4 rating and a slope of 144.
     You've got to play it, all I can say.

You can get some pics at the following sites:
http://michigan.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/eagleeyerev.html
http://www.hawkhollow.com/

[Matt_Ward]

Brian, et al:

I have played a far less than solid sampling of MI public courses but enough to comment on a few you included.

Greywalls is a stellar course and worthy of being right at the top -- even against Arcadia. Anyone venturing to the northern tier needs to head to Marquette for multiple rounds. Kudos to Mike DeVries.

Regarding Bay Harbor I believe it's one of the most overrated courses in the state -- although there are a few holes on the Quarry Nine that are worth talking about.

Here's a layout that if you had a top tier architect the end result would have been much better. Art Hills simply failed to get the most out of this unique site.

Last item -- for those who have played The Mines -- be interested in knowing how many rounds out of ten would you play there versus say Greywalls (I'm assuming people have played both to comment).

Thanks ...

[Jeff_Mingay]

I've played both the Gailes and Blackshire courses there, at Lakewood Shores. When conditions are "right" at the Gailes - with firm turf and wind - I'd play that course 10 out of 10 times. No doubt.

As for the Mines versus Greywalls, Matt: they're two entirely different courses. I worked with Mike D. at Greywalls a bit, early, early in construction. But I haven't been back since the course opened for play. I visited the Mines eariler this year.

Hmmmm... Greywalls is immediately stunning. There are a number of very good holes there, and the visuals alone will blow most golfers' minds. The Mines - smack dab in the middle of Grand Rapids - MIGHT be as interesting, from a pure golfing perspective, though.

I'd encourage anyone visiting Western Michigan to play the Mines GC. It's definitely one of the best deals in the State too, along with nearby "DeVries Designs" at Pilgrim's Run and Diamond Springs.

[Steve Lang]

 

I heard once that the gca had to decide who was greater.. mackensie or ross.. to get the job.. he said ross.. big leap..

now for a favorite..

[Jim Thompson]

Paul,

I can easily see why some would really enjoy Eagle Eye.  The features and contouring is very good and has a very rugged feel.  There is also a fair amount of unusual / unexpected undulation and some very good quirk. I've been fortunate to play it a handful of times and have only one gripe and that is relative to some maintenance issues, but you know how I am.  The rough at EE is some very rare stuff as well, although not overly penal in length it is like hitting out of velcro.  I have no idea how they do it but be prepared to swing hard to extract a shot.  A couple of the par 3's are the same hole, some housing is a little close for my taste and some bunkering is a little to much like donut sprinkles for my taste as well but... that's me.  All in all a very fine product for being "in town". I think you would really enjoy it from our visits.  I would drive over there to play it with you, let's put it that way!

Brian,

Better check your counts, I know that on the day you visited we played 36, although Iwouldn't blame you for trying to forget that double press with Dave during the second round. i think with a few more plays we might move up the list as well.  Very happy to be in the top ten though.

I'm curious how The Thoroughbred and the Heathlands have such appeal.  Not meant as a criticism of your list, but I have never really enjoyed them.  Please help me understand your view, I might just learn something.

As for Bay Harbor, I think the course and its current status boils down to a really good nine - Links, a unique nine - Quarry, and a yawner third nine Preserve.  Arcadia steals the thunder from the good nine as being a better or more linksy display just down the road.

I would offer that Hidden River needs to get some consideration in that list as well.  When you consider that the golf porion of the site was originally three flat pieces of land the result is amazing and a fine display of imagination and craftsmanship.

Matt & Jeff,

You really must come for a visit.

Cheers!

JT

[Brian Cenci]

Paul,

I can easily see why some would really enjoy Eagle Eye.  The features and contouring is very good and has a very rugged feel.  There is also a fair amount of unusual / unexpected undulation and some very good quirk. I've been fortunate to play it a handful of times and have only one gripe and that is relative to some maintenance issues, but you know how I am.  The rough at EE is some very rare stuff as well, although not overly penal in length it is like hitting out of velcro.  I have no idea how they do it but be prepared to swing hard to extract a shot.  A couple of the par 3's are the same hole, some housing is a little close for my taste and some bunkering is a little to much like donut sprinkles for my taste as well but... that's me.  All in all a very fine product for being "in town". I think you would really enjoy it from our visits.  I would drive over there to play it with you, let's put it that way!

Brian,

Better check your counts, I know that on the day you visited we played 36, although Iwouldn't blame you for trying to forget that double press with Dave during the second round. i think with a few more plays we might move up the list as well.  Very happy to be in the top ten though.

I'm curious how The Thoroughbred and the Heathlands have such appeal.  Not meant as a criticism of your list, but I have never really enjoyed them.  Please help me understand your view, I might just learn something.

As for Bay Harbor, I think the course and its current status boils down to a really good nine - Links, a unique nine - Quarry, and a yawner third nine Preserve.  Arcadia steals the thunder from the good nine as being a better or more linksy display just down the road.

I would offer that Hidden River needs to get some consideration in that list as well.  When you consider that the golf porion of the site was originally three flat pieces of land the result is amazing and a fine display of imagination and craftsmanship.

Matt & Jeff,

You really must come for a visit.

Cheers!

JT

Jim,
     You're correct in that we did play 36 and also correct in that I would like to forget the double press.  If I were ranking the top greens on the public's in Michigan, I think I would have Angel's #1.  Really, #5 through #10 is hard to rank as I see them as very similar courses with each of them having one thing that sticks out as maybe being better than the other.
     I always have like the Thoroughbred, although it seems to insight hatred in a lot of people I talk to.  The Heathlands I played 8 years ago and it has sort of stuck in my head with the overall style of the course.  I also haven't played Hidden River but plan to at some point.

-Brian

[Brian_Sleeman]

I've enjoyed Hidden River the two times I've been there, and it's almost always deserted.  Plus you've got the Douglas Lake Bar nearby, and Hidden River itself has one of the best and most relaxing clubhouses I've been in.

It's certainly not in the top tier for Michigan, but it is a fun and relaxing round and definitely worth a visit.

What's everyone's opinion of Little Traverse Bay GC?  Quite a piece of property there, with giant elevation changes and a challenging design.

[David Wigler]

Brian - I respect your posting such a list - especially with so many of us familiar with Michigan golf.  The two that jump out at me at Yarrow and Pilgrim's Run.  I think Pilgrims Run is a top five in Michigan.  Although it is not like you blasted it, what about it had it so low? The one that really blew me away was Yarrow.  I would probably have not put it in my top 50 in Michigan.  I always kind of viewed it as a poorly conditioned, silly, short, over-hazarded and wetland constrained dog-track best played in scrambles and other beer induced cart ball rounds.  What did you see there that you liked so much - not meant as a criticism, you clearly have the right to your opinion, just asked out of curiosity?

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Can people provide any detailed info on Eagle Eye ?

Location ?

Architect ?

Year opened ?

Course specifics ?

For a layout to be thought of that highly makes me very interested in possibly visiting it the next time I'm in MI.

Many thanks ...

[Brian Cenci]

Brian - I respect your posting such a list - especially with so many of us familiar with Michigan golf.  The two that jump out at me at Yarrow and Pilgrim's Run.  I think Pilgrims Run is a top five in Michigan.  Although it is not like you blasted it, what about it had it so low? The one that really blew me away was Yarrow.  I would probably have not put it in my top 50 in Michigan.  I always kind of viewed it as a poorly conditioned, silly, short, over-hazarded and wetland constrained dog-track best played in scrambles and other beer induced cart ball rounds.  What did you see there that you liked so much - not meant as a criticism, you clearly have the right to your opinion, just asked out of curiosity?

Pilgrim's Run is a solid course, but I wouldn't consider it low.  I look at courses when I rank them and say, "what would I rather play" in order to really rank those that are similar in overall quality (as is many from #11 through #17 for me).  Pilgrims I have only played once and did really enjoy it but when I put it up against those in my top 5 I can't see it as a better course.  The one thing I really liked about Pilgrims was the short cut fairways, especially around the greens (so I could put almost anywhere near the green).  I honestly don't see puting Pilgrim's Run ahead of any in my top 9 or 10, so I would consider it as somewhere between #11 and #20 in Michigan.
 
I was extremely pleased with Yarrow.  The style of the course fits my eye, I guess.  I liked the bunkering and the flow of the course as it varied between a links style to a forested up north style (over wetlands and around lakes).  I think it is an easy course but I wouldn't detract that from its overall ranking.

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