[Bill Brightly]

I know of two courses that used TDI to install drainage on old greens. I've seen it being done, it's an amazing process. The greens were back in play a day after installation. We are considering it for a few of our wettest greens. Anyone have any direct experience with TDI? Anyone have any problems?

[JSlonis]

Bill,

We used them a few years ago on some of our greens at Tavistock CC.  The results were fantastic.  Completely playable in a day or so after completion.

[Scott Witter]

Bill:

I have seen it done on many greens and I have also played on many of these greens shortly after and many months after installation and they have performed very well.  The guys at TDI hold the patent on this process and they are VERY good at their work.  While it isn't a cheap solution, it is by far a better alternative to calling in the dozer and starting over.  They can do a green in a matter of hours and as you say, you can be playing it the next day!  I would certainly give it an opportunity.  I have not heard of any problems with this type of work by TDI, but this has only been my experience and from what I have heard from others who have used them.

[TEPaul]

Is the TDI process the one that leaves the sort of skeletal lines on a putting green for sometimes a few years? I still see that on the right 9th green at PVGC.

[Bill Brightly]

It does leave lines, I think because the green drains best over the drain. They do not effect putting, but they are visible. I wonder how long they last. Does anyone know?

[Scott Witter]

Guys, it does last quite a while, but guess you'll just have to get past that as opposed to shelling out say 50K for a new green

[Bill Brightly]

Scott,

How long do the lines last? I thought it was a year. I know the greens put perfectly very soon after, I've played on greens that have had it done. I just need to know how long the lines will be visible, because I'm gonna hear about them from our members...(I'm the grounds chairman and we are about to hire TDI...)Thanks.

[Ryan Farrow]

The greens at Oakmont still have lines in them and its been over a year. Some greens have blended the lines in more than others but its not that noticeable. The greens do drain extremely well. Standing water will get sucked up in a matter of minutes after a downpour.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Do they have a website?

[Ryan Farrow]

http://www.greensdrainage.com/

XGD Systems, who did the work at Oakmont.

[Scott Witter]

Bill:

I have seen the lines last for almost two years and some have gone away mostly after as short as a few months...I think a lot depends on the internal soils structure, the maintenance practices that follow, feeding and cultural practices as well.  To me the members need to get past it honestly, it is just a brief visual thing.  Heck they are going to be playing on them VERY soon afterward so that should be their primary concern.  Since they play the course three times a week they will still know how the surfaces break so hopefully the lines won't throw them off.  In the end, I would be quite candid with the TDI representative who will be doing the work and ask them straight away about how long the lines will last and if they know of any unique techniques that will help to blend in sooner.

Good luck, I believe you will be very pleased with the results

[Bill Brightly]

This is TDI's website:

http://www.tdigolf.com/sub/about_us.asp

[TEPaul]

Guys;

Regarding the skeletal lines left on the greens, I've seen a lot of them but I've certainly never noticed any effect on putting or anything else to do with play. I was just asking if this company and this process is the one that does leave those skeletal lines on greens for a while.

[wsmorrison]

I've heard great things about the product, the procedure and the quick return to play.  What I have noticed is the not so quick disappearance of the lines.  I've noticed some that were several years removed from the installation.  Do they used pea gravel around the tubing?  Besides more rapid drainage as an answer, could the heating of the stones cause the discoloration?  

EZ Flow is a system I've seen for greenside and fairway bunkers that is also use for greens but I have only seen the bunker drainage results.  It has a prepared system of a tube surrounded by the styrofoam peanuts and plastic netting, on top goes a barrier fabric.  The stones are not necessary so you know they wont come up in bunkers after freezes.  I know Mike McNulty of Philadelphia Country Club raves about the product and the long-term results have proven excellent.  It might be worth checking out.  Here's their installation guide:

www.ringindustrial.com/downloads/EzFlow%20Guide.pdf

[Jim_Coleman]

    I believe the lines last forever.  I've never seen a green where they've disappeared.  I also don't think they're harmless.  According to our super, they require two different maintenance practices on the same green - one for the green and one for the lines.  What the lines apparantly signify are areas that drain differently (quicker) than the rest of the green, so they need more water.
    I could be all wet about this, but that's my understanding.

[Bill Brightly]

OK, I wrote to a superintendent who had TDI install drains on two courses in successive years. Here is what he wrote:

I would tell you that I believe the lines show up much more evidently on Poa/Bent greens as opposed to straight Bentgrass. Most likely due to the deeper rooting habit of bentgrass plants and the modeling that occurs on a mixed stand of turf can cause the lines to stand out more. There is no impact to playability as it’s just cosmetic.  The trench lines were not aerified or drill & filled.  During the installation of the drain lines we were also performing the drill& fill and conventional aerification and were forced to skip the drain lines.  

Conversely, the (first course completed) has been aerified and drilled & filled four times since the drains were installed last year and the lines are not visible.  Aerification will greatly reduce the cosmetic blemishes of the drains.  I will concur with the statement made in golfclubatlas.com that the drain lines will reappear in dry conditions and will require hand watering to those areas more often than other sections of the green.  This won’t last forever though, and a totally different maintenance practice for the lines is not required. There is an initial adjustment to the agronomic program the first year but that additional expense is money well spent as opposed to rebuilding the entire green.  The benefits of the XGD system greatly out way any negative implications such as cosmetic blemishes observed for one or two seasons or a little extra hand watering.

It is most important to recognize that the native soil (area between the drain lines) permeability must be increased through aerification in order for excess water to get into the drains and out of the rootzone.


(I hope this helps if anyone is seriously considering this! We are going ahead with this process on our two wettest greens.)

[Forrest Richardson]

Your best advice is to consult with a golf course architect who can bring agronomic and turf knowledge to the application. Drainage in old greens must be a matter of balance and longevity. There are several methods to eliminate drainage problems — the trick is finding the solution that meets the long term.

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