Sebonack/Jack's Opening Round

[Pete Stankevich]

If anyone actually went and witnessed this, then you could verify if this is true or not.
I'm driving around this afternoon and listening to the Mike and the Mad Dog sports radio show out of New York.  Mike Francesa started talking about how he was at the official dedication/ceremony for Sebonack yesterday.  He had played it recently as a guest of Mike Walsh and obviously had great things to say about it.
He spoke about the Doak/Nicklaus collaboration, although he admittedly had not heard of Tom Doak prior to this week.   He mentioned that Tom seems to be THE GUY for golf course architecture fans.  (Note to Mike:  Duh!?)  
Apparently, he and the crowd followed Jack on his traditional opening round, complete with commentary on the course.
He said there were holes that he talked quite a bit about the design and others where he didn't say anything.  What I found interesting was that he said Jack clearly had problems with the design of a couple of greens.  He didn't say which ones or what his problem with them were.  
Did anyone either hear this radio broadcast or watch it on the YES Network?  Or was anyone at this event who could clarify this?  

[Brad Klein]

I can clarify it, since I had a pretty good seat for the golf, as Jack's caddie. And by the way, Doak's caddie was Damon Hack, golf writer of the NYTImes, and Doak played pretty well, hitting many fine drives and approaches but finding himself occasionally with tough greenside recoveries. I wonder who he blames for the awkward spots he found himself in, "the other designer?"

Jack was not at his best golf form. By the way, he played the course from 7,200 yards, Doak mainly played the 6,750 yards tees but a few times they both played the same back tees. It took Nicklaus a few holes to loosen up, esp. with an early (for him) tee time of 8:30 a.m., and he finally got going on holes 11-15. He made a serious go in reaching the 550-yard par-5 13th, just coming up short, hitting a great chip and finding himself a little confounded by the combination of slope and the speed. There are some big major breaks out there and lots of subtle stuff, too, and this was the first time he was playing those greens under full field conditions.

All told he hit ten greens in regulation, but didn't putt well at all, making nothing outside of 6-7 feet, and that includes missing seven biride putts in the 12-15 foot range. His lag putting was fine, but at the outset he declared "no three-putts" for anyone today, a rule invoked for the sake of speed so that some of those playing along (in the Pascucci family) with the group could finish by the allotted time of 1 p.m. -- no easy thing given the frequent interruptions for TV, interviews, voiceovers.

Simetimes Jack took the lead in explaining a hole, sometimes Doak did. I don't think Francesa was around for the entire time, certainly he saw the beginning and the end, but in between he was off doing things. If he was around it was at some distance. All that was clear is that Jack didn't make a birdie putt (nor did anyone else), nor, as far as I can remember, a putt of any consequence longer than about 10 feet.

It was a complicated day (see Doak's comments on another thread about this) with lots of stopping, talking, interviews. Nicklaus was also making some notes with his design associates, Jim Lipe and Chris Rule, who walked along, as well as talking with Doak and Pascucci quietly (off mike) about various tweaks and so on. As with any newly opened courses, there are some issues, and they discussed things like the fairway mowing lines. So it was not just a ceremonial round but a working one, and that included Nicklaus tinkering with his swing a little.

In all of his other openings, Jack was the only show. This time, a lot was going on, hardly a time to worry about how well or not so well he was playing or putting.
 

[Steve Curry]

Brad,

Must have been a great day.

Steve

[Adam Clayman]

Profesor,
 Thanx for the account.

Could you please share with us the nature of the commentary the designers made? Were they rudimentary? Feature specific? Was there any mention of the routing? Pond on 8?

Was there any good nature ribbing? Or was everything uptight polite?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Thanks Brad

[Tom_Doak]

I didn't see Mike Francesa there, bummer as I would have liked to meet him.  Wow, I was "on the Fan", that's big time.

I was a bit surprised that Jack seemed to indicate his concern with a couple of greens at the press conference after the round, since he passed on every one of them.  In this respect the collaboration was awkward, because once Jack and I had passed on it, it was difficult to tweak one at the end as my conscience sometimes dictates.  He probably feels the same way, I guess.  I was also surprised that Michael wanted to talk about a couple of minor changes ... didn't seem like the right day to do so, although that's one problem I see with working with Jack, you don't have many other opportunities to talk through little details afterward.

The greens were 11 on the Stimpmeter for our round yesterday, even though we always talked about never getting them above 10, and yesterday proved why.  Putting was difficult, or maybe one of us would have made a birdie somewhere!  I had near-impossible two-putts from the back of #4 to a middle hole location, and from off the back left of #13 to a right front hole location [but, I shouldn't have pulled an easy approach shot over there].  However, it is those very things which make the course resistant to scoring, and everyone seems to be pleased with that result.

[Sally Livingston]

I've been waiting to see this, any one know where to see any clippings of it? It's not on the Yes Network website, unless hidden behind all the baseball news somewhere.

Congratulations to you Tom! And Brad! It must have been a memorable day!

[Brad Klein]

Adam, before I divulge national security secrets, I need to clear it with my aides. I have been laboring for decades under the assumption that the same privileged relationship of attorney-client and doctor-patient governs that between caddie-golfer.

By the way, the book, "Building Sebonack," has just been published, with the first few copies delivered Wednesday to the club and the bulk of the shipment from the overseas printers arriving next week. The book will be commercially available, and anyone can buy it. Note, it comes with a free Sebonack membership, but the book costs $500,000.

[Mark Hissey]

I was surprised to hear about this. I got about ten calls today telling me about what Mike Francesa supposedly said. Nevertheless, I have to reserve judgement on it until I can hear it for myself.

But, my perspective on it was this. For those of you who know me well, you probably know what a rabid soccer fan I am. As a result, "Mike and the Mad Dog's" disdain for it bothers me a great deal. So, up front there was no love lost from my side for Mike Francesa.

I was pleasantly surprised at how much I liked him. After the entourage passed through nine, a stayed back for a good fifteen minutes talking to Mike and Jim Nantz who were sharing a cart. They were both fascinated by the construction techniques we employed, of the history of the place and all of the other anecdotes. I thought Jim Nantz was a really wonderful guy also. They were both polite, genuinely inquisitive and were incredibly complimentary.

What did come through to me was that they just wanted to know so much about Tom. They clearly knew little about him but were awed at what they were seeing on the course. Of course they wanted to know a little about the working relationship, but didn't want to dwell on the existence or non-existence of any tension between the two.

I'd like to hear what Francesa said. Having seen how he was acting towards me, I am stunned that he might have been in any way negetive.

In any case, I thought the whole event was a tremndous amount of fun. More to the point, the members who tagged along absolutely loved it -- and let's be honest, they aren't a crowd who are easily impressed. there was lots of laughing and joking. Lots of people who love architecture to talk to. Lots of people who could compare Sebonack to other similar courses. The atmosphere was really good.

Brad performed well as Jack's caddy. I tried to get a picture of him in that role, but despite my best efforts, he was incredibly camera-shy  

Jack's greatness is still apparent. Of course he is rusty as he plays very little now. But, how can you not love seeing Jack up very close? Tom played the best I have ever seen him. I did witness Ran giving him a spanking this week, but he played like a man posessed on Thursday. It really was just an exhibition of course, but everyone had a great time.

[Bill_McBride]

Mark, from Noel's description of the Ran-Doak match, it sounded more like a "last man standing" result rather than a "spanking."  

What's the reality?  Did Ran really spank him with superior play?  Inquiring minds want to know!  

[Pete Stankevich]

I'd like to hear what Francesa said. Having seen how he was acting towards me, I am stunned that he might have been in any way negetive.
____________________________________________________
Mark:
I'm sorry if my initial post in any way conveyed that Mike Francesa was negative.  Far from it.  He had nothing but great things to say about the course, the day, etc.
He's definitely a novice when it comes to golf courses and architecture (he didn't know about Tom Doak prior to the event and I believe he said Pacific Dunes was in California, just to give a couple examples).
He did talk a little about the collaboration between Doak and Nicklaus, how both are used to working on their own courses, and that Michael Pascucci wanted both for the project and to work together.
Right before they went to a commercial, he mentioned that Jack definitely seemed to have a problem with a couple of the greens.  I think he mentioned they would talk about it after the break, but when I turned it back on 5 minutes later, they had Joe Torre on.  This was around 2pm and I stopped listening then, so they could have continued with it later.
Usually, they rerun their show on YES at night, but it's not listed tonight.
So nothing negative at all, he was just reporting what he heard Jack say I guess.
Actually, I guess we have you to thank for filling him in on everything.  I've been listening to that show forever and they'll talk golf a little bit around the majors.  But to hear them talk GCA.....wow!
Thank you!

[TEPaul]

Brad Klein:

You caddied for Nicklaus?

How cool!

On the other hand, no wonder he didn't make any putts.  

Doak didn't make any putts? Nobody made any putts? Hmmm.

Doak had trouble recovering from around the greens? That's interesting as Doak has proclaimed a number of times that is one of the very things he concentrates on with architecture he's involved in.

My take on just looking at that golf course is that if they decide to get it firm and fast both "through the green" and on those green surfaces that golf course will offer one helluva extreme challenge to any golfer.

BTW, I think I owe you a call on those two courses reports.

[Brad Klein]

Okay, here's my big problem with Sebonack. It has the most useless caddie yardage book I have ever seen. It provides yardages to the green centers from various sprinkler heads, but the heads themselves are not marked or numbered so you can't identify them in the field, and they are so poorly positioned in the drawings relative to various course features and they are not in proper spatial relationship with hazards, bunkers, so you cannot find them when out on the course with the yardage book in hand. Where's Tommy Naccarato's yardage guides when we need them?

Not that the Sebonack caddies care, because they gloat over having a hand-held laser yardage device to determine exact yardages to the pin. And I, having to uphold a certain amount of street cred consistent with my writings, refused to use them, so I'm depending upon an undependable yardage guide book while caddying for Nicklaus. Other caddies in the group (not Damon Hack, but the club caddies) were laughing at me, encouraging me to use the tool and not understanding why I was reluctant. I managed, mainly by racing up ahead and getting the yardages early, also (I must admit) with occasional help from others, and once or twice by surreptitiously using the device. More than once, Jim Lipe and Mark Hissey tried to photograph me using the thing, and I managed to avoid being caught on film. But all this because the yardage book is no good.

As for putting, Nicklaus reads his own greens and always has.

[TEPaul]

"Okay, here's my big problem with Sebonack. It has the most useless caddie yardage book I have ever seen. It provides yardages to the green centers from various sprinkler heads, but the heads themselves are not marked or numbered so you can't identify them in the field, and they are so poorly positioned in the drawings relative to various course features and they are not in proper spatial relationship with hazards, bunkers, so you cannot find them when out on the course with the yardage book in hand. Where's Tommy Naccarato's yardage guides when we need them?"

Bradley S. Klein, that's total horseshit and the most pathetic excuse I ever heard. You should've been out there for 12 hours a day for a solid week walking and familiarizing yourself with every inch of that course and yardages from anywhere to anywhere else like any other decent caddie The Great Man has ever had.

You totally shirked your responsiblity and let Jack down. I hope he reamed you out for excessive incompetence and refused to pay you too.

[Brad Klein]

Tom, my dog ate my notes from previous course walks. And no, Jack didn't pay me (again). He never does, I'm told. Cheapskate.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

At one point, I have to talk to Ran about putting a lock on this thead so that it never disappears. I mean like in 80 years time when this website has become essentially the Golf Illustrated (research value) of our time (which I have no doubt it eventually will) the importance of this thread will go through the roof!
Sounds as if the grand opening was a success and congrats to Mark Hissey and his associates, as well as Tom and the Entire Renassiance crew. I would congraulate Jim Lipe and Chris Rule if he was frequented here, because I know they too were very valuable to the entire project.

Our Golden Age just got bigger!

BTW, I've seen a few galley's for Brad's book and it's going to be  something to have.

[Tom_Doak]

Brad's book is very impressive (not the yardage book -- he's right about that one).  Lots of candid photos taken throughout the construction process, so everyone can see what it was like to be out there with lots of others looking over our shoulders.  (Jack must be used to that -- I'm glad I'm not.)

The plan of the course depicted in the book is an as-built drawn by my associate, Sara Mess.  Sadly, they did not print my original routing for comparison.

P.S. to Brad -- When I was stymied there on #13, I looked around for Urbina, because that was one of his greens.  He was walking away toward #15 with his wife!

[TEPaul]

"And no, Jack didn't pay me (again). He never does, I'm told. Cheapskate."

You're kidding. That's just shocking. That makes him worse than a cheapskate in my opinion. That makes him a full-blown cheapskateboard!! Do you think he would entertain the idea of giving you a ride on his gulfstream or is he too cheapskateboardish to do that too?

Furthermore, Bradley S. Klein, you or your wife better take that dog of yours to the vet and get him checked out. Dogs don't eat Sebonak course notes---only goats do that.

[TEPaul]

Hey, Tom Doak, do you think you have finally arrived in the pantheon of golf course architecture to enough of an extent to stiff your caddie too?

[TEPaul]

"P.S. to Brad -- When I was stymied there on #13, I looked around for Urbina, because that was one of his greens.  He was walking away toward #15 with his wife!"

Jeeesus Keeriiist, this thread is taking on new meaning for architects and others shirking responsibility for that which they should've been responsible for.

Nicklaus completely stiffs Klein for caddying for him?? Klein blames his dog (that he doesn't even realize is actually a goat) for eating his Sebonack course notes?? Jim Urbina is seen walking away from the 13th green with his wife after Doak gets into an impossible stymied recovery postion??

I'd bet a lot Urbina was probably walking away from the 13th green reaming his wife out for being responsible for Doak's situation.

These examples are not only indicative with everything that's wrong in American golf and American golf architecture but it's indicative of everything that's wrong with America itself.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:  Hey, I can kid him a little bit.  Jim is also responsible for what I think are the two best greens on the course -- #6 and #9.  He built both of them before any of us had gotten to the site to start work, based on about five minutes' discussion with me during the clearing process.  The sixth was tweaked very slightly by Jack, the ninth never changed at all.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Okay, here's my big problem with Sebonack. It has the most useless caddie yardage book I have ever seen. It provides yardages to the green centers from various sprinkler heads, but the heads themselves are not marked or numbered so you can't identify them in the field, and they are so poorly positioned in the drawings relative to various course features and they are not in proper spatial relationship with hazards, bunkers, so you cannot find them when out on the course with the yardage book in hand. Where's Tommy Naccarato's yardage guides when we need them?

Not that the Sebonack caddies care, because they gloat over having a hand-held laser yardage device to determine exact yardages to the pin. And I, having to uphold a certain amount of street cred consistent with my writings, refused to use them, so I'm depending upon an undependable yardage guide book while caddying for Nicklaus. Other caddies in the group (not Damon Hack, but the club caddies) were laughing at me, encouraging me to use the tool and not understanding why I was reluctant. I managed, mainly by racing up ahead and getting the yardages early, also (I must admit) with occasional help from others, and once or twice by surreptitiously using the device. More than once, Jim Lipe and Mark Hissey tried to photograph me using the thing, and I managed to avoid being caught on film. But all this because the yardage book is no good.

Run me off the board but I'm beginning to change my mind about rangefinders. Everyone seems to want yardages so why not use them to obtain them instead of running around looking for irrigation heads or yardage books?  Properly used, they can speed up play.

If you are going to run around like Brad did and sit around taking time to calculate distance from a book what is the difference?

ps- I'm glad that I'm off for vacation in an hour or so away from computers and idealistic mobs of golfers.

[TEPaul]

"Run me off the board but I'm beginning to change my mind about rangefinders. Everyone seems to want yardages so why not use them to obtain them instead of running around looking for irrigation heads or yardage books?  Properly used, they can speed up play.
If you are going to run around like Brad did and sit around taking time to calculate distance from a book what is the difference?"

There you go Geoffrey. You have a great point there and now one wonders why Bradley S. Klein did not have a rangefinder to help Jack out with his yardages, particularly after Bradley realized his dog which he's amazingly not aware is actually a goat ate his Sebonack yardages?

Maybe Bradley S. mistakenly thought Mike Pascucci had not adopted the local rangefinder rule (new this year in The Rules of Golf) into the Opening Day "Conditions of Competition" and that had he used one Mike Pascucci and Sebonack's "committee" may've DQed Jack and sent him packing onto his waiting Gulfstream.

Or maybe Bradley S. felt that if he'd gotten a rangefinder (to help out Jack) his dog may've pissed on it and ruined its operation somehow.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Interesting takes on the rangefinders.  If they are currently too cumbersome for a walker carrying a bag to use seamlessly and in a timely fashion then I would grow annoyed with them too.

Brad was either worried about his image or Doak got to him before the round and offered a caddy fee in cash if he would give bad yardages so he could win against Jack.

[Brad Klein]

Jack obviously carries one of the devices on his bag. He is, after all, frequently shown in magazine ads endorsing Laser Link and has his own Quick Shot device, and the flagstickls at Sebonack have the prism for them. I just don't like using them. I was raised on stepping off yardages, honed that while caddying on Tour. Doak's caddie, by the way, also had a Laser Link Quick Shot in hand but the battery died so he was either eyeballing each shot or, occasionally, getting some help from the other caddies. But obviously Nicklaus plays a different game than Doak does and plays an aerial game to a specific target, which I usually can locate easily enough.

Hey, I gave up my typewriter long ago for a computer, but I do like the feel and rhythm of a keyboard and so don't use a Blackberry. It's a matter of preferene and style. What I don't like about distance aquisition devices is that any idiot can caddie with them, whereas at least my way requires a certain level of skill and course familiarity, which I would normally have.

I also like the yardage books, or at least a proper one, because in providing a map of the hole it reminds you of alternative options and an awareness of all other yardage possibilties and hole strategies, something you don't have with the hand-helds.

In an ideal world, I'd ban all yardage devices and go back to eye-balling and judgment. But you don't always get to chose your conditions of play.

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