[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

I disagree.

I've tried the long putter - just for kicks mind you, never on a course - and I can't do shit with it.  Many are like me.  It's odd and unnatural and just plain feels weird, more like croquet or some other feminine game than golf.

So you're asking me to accept a one-size fits all solution that works for you - and other shitty putters - when I have no need for it.  I have absolutely zero doubt that switching to your system would cost me 5-6 strokes per round.

But then again, I'm a damn good putter with a convential stick, from all distances.

Thus I don't expect you to understand how I think.

But once again, keep up the delusions.  As I say, it is good for your golf sanity.  

You just can't deny that this was a move made out of desperation, and if you were a good putter, you wouldn't have made it.

The most telling line is how you say you keep both in the bag for security... not even using the long one sometimes... if you are such a Thomas devotee, why would you ever do that?

I'll tell you why.  Because deep in your heart you know how stupid this is, and all the rationalization in the world won't change that.

TH

[wsmorrison]

I don't change clubs regularly although once in a while I'll take out my 52* and use a 56* on the shorter of our two courses which also works well for me on one downhill par 3.

I use Ping G2 10* with NV65 stiff
Izett high profile 15* with YS-6 stiff
Izett high profile 22* with YS-6 stiff
3-PW Hogan Apex (1998) with Apex 4
Izett 52*
Izett 60*
Yes Tracy II

I am very opposed to the use of long putters.  It is not a golf swing.  If a croquet swing can't be used how can an anchored swing be allowed?  In my mind it is as egregious an error by the USGA as allowing the ball to get out of hand.  Never used one; never will.

[John Keenan]

On the 2 putter issue at the Pacific Am  Zack Miller who plays for Stanford carried 2 putters a long and a regular. He did not win and his putting did not seem any better then those with one putter.

I think it is Tom Watson who does not use a lob wedge claims it is too hard to master 2 wedges for shots. His lesson is get great with one.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Wayne:

I'd bet you find the irony as I do in a guy who rails against a "cheater line" being placed on the golf ball at the same time being a die-hard advocate of the long putter.  Or perhaps irony isn't the right word... maybe hypocritical?

 

Heck, I don't find either to be particularly contrary to the spirit of the rules.  I also have compassion for the desparate.

TH

[wsmorrison]

There's something those guys can smoke to help them with the yips.  It works much better than having that broomstick in their bag  

[Doug Ralston]

No, I carry the same 16 clubs to every course I play.

Doug

[Tom Huckaby]

OK shiv, whatever you say.  I'll keep watching for all these great putters making the switch to carrying two.

And you can assure me all you want.  I know I putt just fine with a golf club, far superior to what I would do if I got desparate enough to sink to your level.  You forget, I tried that monstrosity, gave it a very fair shake on a putting green, not once, but several times over the years.  I am a curious sort.  I disagree that a good putter improves with that dork-wand.

So you keep using that broomstick, and enjoy curling and shuffleboard and all the other "sports" it resembles far more than golf.

 

Gosh it's sad when otherwise good golfers sink to desparate measures.  Here's hoping that some day you come back to coolness, my friend.

[A.G._Crockett]

Lots and lots and lots of guys who play for money on TV carry 4 wedges.  None of them carry two putters.  If they thought it would help them win, they'd carry 4 putters and no wedges.  What does that tell you?

If you can get good with one putter, rolling the ball well, you've done great.

Shivas, I've had the yips, too, and I've used the belly.  But I'd never kid myself by saying that it is a better way to play golf.  Its just a survival tactic, like beer during the round.  Sorry, dude.

[Tom Huckaby]

AGC:  thanks.  Of course you're correct.  Shiv just likes to carry his delusions to the farthest level... it helps him play better when he feels he's right.  I can understand that.  I just feel bad tearing him down today... he may never make another putt.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

shiv:

You put the line at 32 putts per round before.

Last time I kept stats - two years ago when I played a lot of competitive golf - my average for the year was 29.

So again, this desparate measure might help for shitty putters.  Of course then the question is what one gives up to add the 2nd putter, but if one is taking that many putts, of course it makes sense to try and decrease that first before worrying about other things.

I buy that.

I just don't see how you can say with a straight face that switching to a 2putter system would help a guy like me, ESPECIALLY when I tell you I've given the long putter a fair shake (which I have) and putt worse with it.

One size does not fit all in this game.

And it remains very true that this might help shitty putters, but good ones don't need it.

TH

[Doug Siebert]

I want to know where that line between a short and long putt is.  Is it an arbitrary distance line, and if so do you step it off?  Or is it firmness of stroke?  I might hit a 60 foot downhill putt softer than an 8 foot uphill putt at home when the greens are quick, so maybe the 60 footer is a short putt and the 8 footer is a long one?  Or is it by whether you are trying to make it or lag it, and if so, does it give your opponent an advantage into your fragile mental state on a bad day when he sees you are lagging a straight in flat 15 footer?

Perhaps next you can go all Mickelson on us and have different putters depending on whether you read a putt to go left to right or right to left?  Combined with the short and long putters you could have as many putters in your bag as some people have wedges!

[Jason McNamara]

I want to know where that line between a short and long putt is.  Is it an arbitrary distance line, and if so do you step it off?  Or is it firmness of stroke?  

I don't carry two putters (don't like the long ones), but I will hit long putts with a standard grip, while I hit short ones left-hand-low.  No specific dividing line, though it's probably 15-20 feet on avg.  And I do walk off everything (quickly) because I have lousy depth perception.  

Jason

[Marty Bonnar]

You're both all wet.  

Tour players have more to gain from the 14th club in the bag than they do from the 2nd putter.
 

Carrying two putters is more ludicrous a notion than thinking a Tour player might carry, well, two drivers.

Maybe he thinks he might fade one and draw the other - or something equally daft.

He'd have to be a dangerously delusional crackpot or, worse still, a cack-hander...

FBD.

[Andrew Thomson]

8.5* Driver
15* 3 wood
19* Hybrid
3-9 Iron
48,54,60
Putter

recently ditched 13* for 15* 3 wood, ditched 2 iron for hybrid and switched from 49, 53, 57 to above combo.  fast becoming sick of the 60* though

[Jim Sweeney]

No. I experiment with ling term substitutions, but do not purposefully select certain clubs for particular courses. Perhaps if I had time to practice with extra clubs, I would reconsider. Also, I don't think my current configuration would work well on a very firm course- last year I played a tournamnent on a very firm course in the South and mhy lob wedge had way too much bounce. So I am test driving lob wedges with less bounce, anticipating permanent replacement.

It is probably just as likely as anything that the club you take out of the bag is the one you'll need three times during your round.

[Mark Pearce]

Yes, to an extent.  I normally carry a 60 degree lob wedge with only 6 degrees of bounce.  On courses with very fine sand and particularly deep bunkers I'll replace this with a 64 degree sandwedge with 16 degrees of bounce.  I also normally carry a driver, 3W and two utility clubs (19 and 22 degrees) the 4i to PW (48), SW (55) and LW (as noted above).  I'm experimenting with a 52 degree gap wedge in place of the 19 degree utility.  I can see the 19 degree utity going back in on courses with 240 yard par 3s.

[Michael Kennedy]

Huck, et al.,
Regarding the two-putter system, I have to come to Shivas' defense here.  We've played a bunch together in recent years, though I must confess that the 2-flat system struck me initially as pretty unconventional solution.  I think Shiv will even agree that he has never seen two putters (intentionally) in a good amateur's or pro's bag in a competitive round.  But for him, the proof is on the turf.  From all distances on the green he's a very solid putter.  I'm sure his scrambling stats (if he were to share them) would back this up.

Most importantly, it's tough for me to remember an instance in ~2 years where he could not hit a (insert shot here) because he was lacking club X.  He simply pulls another club and makes the shot happen. Hey, it works for him.  

Isn't this the big issue - that including a second putter would limit Shiv's ability to properly execute the shot which calls for a (missing) wedge or long iron?  Even Phil admitted at the Bell South earlier this year that he needed the club which he pulled out to make room for the extra driver (was it a 3 or 4 iron?).  We can all agree that Phil's strategy worked pretty well at the Bell South and the following week.

Could the inspiration for Mickelson's 2-driver setup have come from Shiv's 2-flat?  

[A.G._Crockett]

You know what this reminds me of?  Rick Barry and the underhand free throw.  Every physics expert in the world would tell you that shooting free throws underhand, once you get used to it, is simply a much better way to make free throws from a mechanics point of view.  But no basketball player would ever go to it because it makes him feel like a dork.  Rick Barry did.  And he made everything.    

 

Shivas,

Take it from a basketball coach (albeit retired now), the Rick Barry analogy doesn't work at all.  First of all, you are saying that he made everything BECAUSE he shot underhanded, when in fact he might have been that good in spite of shooting underhanded, though admittedly it would have been tough to be better.

Second, every study ever done of successful shooting biomechanics says that the single biggest common factor among high percentage shooters is a relatively high release point.  (This means that ONE hand guides the ball, not two!)

Third (and this is where your analogy REALLY causes problems for the two putter thing!) shooting FT's underhand forces a player to practice two skills instead of one, since they won't be shooting underhand any other time.  Since all conventional FT practice is also practice for other shots, that is a HUGE trade-off for very questionable benefits.  That's why NO basketball coaches teach underhand shooting OR urge players to try it.  It ain't because it looks dorky; if coaches thought it would help them win, they'd have players shooting backwards hook shots with their eyes closed and their pants down!

Think about it; one setup or two for putting?  One stroke or two for putting?  Two types of practice or one?  The long putter is great from short range for yippers, without doubt.  Two putters as a better way to putt universally?  No way, my brother...

[A.G._Crockett]

AG, I hear ya, but the reason nobody coaches it not because it isn't better.  It's because the players will rebel, there isn't enough time and other reasons like that.  It is a better stroke.  See below:

http://www.discover.com/issues/oct-00/departments/featphysics/

It's sooooo funny to me that so many golfers who have spent decades working on simplifying their golf swings and eliminating excess movement and swing variables get a putting stroke HANDED TO THEM ON A SILVER PLATTER (BY ROCCO MEDIATE) that is clearly simpler and better because it eliminates all of the KEY putting stroke variables, and everybody runs from it like it's the plague.

I guess this just proves that golfers are a masochistic lot.  "Thank you, but I'd rather hunch over a 6 footer for money, have my left wrist break down, lift my head up and peek at my putts and miss them but look like a stud doing it than eliminate that stuff and look stupid making the putt."

Ahh!  I absolutely agree with you IF what we are talking about is the biomechanical advantages of the long putter and what amounts to a one-handed stroke.  But that's not the same thing at all as using two putters and two putting strokes being a better way to play golf.  Absent the yips, it couldn't be.

BTW, the great flaw in the article about shooting underhanded is that it is NOT more stable to shoot with two hands, because they have to be exactly coordinated to stay on line; that's the difficulty.  
As to Rick Barry's advocacy, he has never lacked for self-confidence or a willingness to belittle others' efforts and skills.

[George Pazin]

I usually only carry 7 or 8 clubs, so I sometimes add a bunch more if I'm playing a special course.

I must be the only high handicapper in the world that finds it easier to hit a 3 iron than a hybrid club. If someone can infer from this paradox what I'm doing wrong in my swing, I'm all ears.

Shivas' practice makes a lot of sense, if that's what works for him. Heck, in confidence alone, it probably helps him out. It evens makes sense, using Thomas' and Pelz's data, as long as the other club you're taking out doesn't hurt you more.

The high release point thing in free throw shooting is kind of weird to me. That implies taller guys should shoot better. I will say, my friends and I used to play on 8 foot rims in high school, but that was more for the fun of acrobatic dunks than better shooting.

 

[Phil Benedict]

Quote from Shivas

"I just think it's sort of funny that the Strategy & Options & Decisionmaking crowd is giving me so much flack for a club decision that is precisely what this crowd preaches and professes daily."

I am sympathetic to you on the two-putter issue.  Whatever gets you through the night, so to speak.  But the idea that it's an element of strategy is pretty bogus.  Strategy is deciding what kind of shot to hit and where to hit it, then choosing the right club to hit that shot.  There's not a lot of strategy once you get to the greens, aside from very basic stuff like keep your approach putt under the hole.

[A.G._Crockett]

The high release point thing in free throw shooting is kind of weird to me. That implies taller guys should shoot better. I will say, my friends and I used to play on 8 foot rims in high school, but that was more for the fun of acrobatic dunks than better shooting.

 

George,
It doesn't imply that tall guys should shoot better.  It implies that a tall guy who has a relatively high release point should, all other things equal, shoot better than a tall guy who has a lower release point.  The size of the player really shouldn't matter; it's just that little guys who can't shoot don't get to play, while big guys who can't shoot still might. The reason is that the lower you go, the more you take the ball off your fingertips and into the palm, and the more you reduce backspin.  That flattens the shot (making the basket effectively smaller) AND makes it less "soft" when it hits the rim.  

The backspin imparted is the big advantage of the underhand method, but that is more than cancelled out by the difficulty of making the two hands work perfectly together, plus the additional practice time that has to be committed.

[George Pazin]

Makes sense.

Care to take a crack at my 3 iron paradox?

 

[A.G._Crockett]

Makes sense.

Care to take a crack at my 3 iron paradox?

 

I'll guess.  

You really like that club, and you swing it with great confidence.  Don't change a thing...

[Bill Shamleffer]

This thread should be all the reason necessary to limit the number of clubs in the bag to 8.  It is quite clear that folks are trying to buy shots based on yardage rather than learn them.  So far as I am concerned this is far more heinous than any other of our modern attempts to ruin the game.

Ciao

Sean

Sean,

You are 100% right.  I see no reason for anything more than a driver, fairway wood, long iron/hybrid, mid iron, short iron, 2 wedges, and a putter.

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