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Mike_Cirba

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2006, 10:38:25 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for your descriptions, which help me to envision on the ground what the pictures can't show.

I certainly would concur that the look of the new holes is very consistent with what's evolved on the rest of the course and in and of itself, that's a very good thing and a marked improvement.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2006, 10:39:21 PM by Mike Cirba »

Joshua Pettit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2006, 11:44:32 PM »
I apologize for the previous spelling error.  I wasn’t quite sure how to spell it so I typed it into google and sure enough that was the spelling that came up in reference to a spider.  My mistake.  
"The greatest and fairest of things are done by nature, and the lesser by art."

Gib_Papazian

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2006, 04:03:42 PM »
Gentlemen,

Can I vector off on a tangent for a moment? My favorite green complex on the golf course is #12 - and yet I am told that the mounds surrounding the putting surface are not original - and in fact conjured up by a past Green Chairman.

#1. Is this true? If so, when did he do it?

#2. If it is not true, then was it Tillie (later) or some other architect?

#3. If it turns out that the mounding was done in-house by a past Green Chairman, should Tom raze it and try to restore the hole?

#4. How do we ascertain when to restore something and when to admit that some modifications - even by a rank amateur - are more interesting that what the original creator envisioned?

I suppose this angle comes from being an Olympian for 32 years and appreciating that the Lake course owes its genius to a process of evolution.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 04:06:13 PM by Gib Papazian »

Gib_Papazian

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2006, 04:13:29 PM »
One more question:

#5. Should Tom cite the vastly improved "Little Tillie" to the Garden City GC as a means to convince the club to get rid of that turd on the landscape they call #12?

It would take juevos maximus, but a simple task for a guy persuasive enough to convince Mike Keiser to approve a back nine with only two par-4's . . . . .   ;)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 04:15:04 PM by Gib Papazian »

TEPaul

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2006, 04:17:24 PM »
Gib:

Does it really make any sense that one who's played something over time and enjoys and respects it should change his opinion about it when they finds out who designed it? However, I think there probably are a number of people on this website who need to let that concept sink in a bit better than they heretofore have.  ;)

There's even one on here who thinks it's OK to never even go to a course and that's it's AOK to read about it in some old magazine or just look at it on a 5,000 ft aerial and proclaim it great architecture worthy of being restored no matter what riff-raff like the club's membership thinks who plays it everyday and pays for it.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 04:23:52 PM by TEPaul »

Gib_Papazian

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2006, 04:27:52 PM »
Actually, what I was trying to explore was whether the concept of a "restoration" precludes leaving alone some feature or addition that works - regardless of who did it.

As far as GCGC, #12 is horrible, and no amount of time, seasoning or fond memories by the membership can change that. Putrid is as putrid does. . . .

But I wonder if sometimes we run willy-nilly towards the concept of an iron-headed restoration, instead of carefully evaluating (and restoring) what does not work and maybe just optimizing what does.

Even if Zippy the Pinhead added this contour or that bunker 38 years after Tilly left for the last time, if it works and flows I see no reason to change it just for the sake of change.

 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 04:29:27 PM by Gib Papazian »

TEPaul

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2006, 04:47:12 PM »
"Even if Zippy the Pinhead added this contour or that bunker 38 years after Tilly left for the last time, if it works and flows I see no reason to change it just for the sake of change."

Gib:

Either do I. But there are some who really are iron-headed, as you say, about an exact restoration to an original architect unaware that could mean restoring something that never worked well in the first place or wiping out what clearly does work well that someone else may've done. They are pinheaded purists.  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2006, 04:49:31 PM »
I've told the mythical story here before how William Flynn went on a massive scotch-induced bender one night, caused by pressure from the upcoming 1930 US Amateur, and went out in a blind drunk rage and dug the two left side fairway bunkers on the 5th hole to protect balls from rolling into the creek, tripped over them and rolled down the hill, through the creek, and forgetting where exactly he was, proceeded in his blasted haze to dig the exact same two bunkers in front of the 4th green, inexplicably between the creek and green.

Those four bunkers were likely the only misplaced ones Flynn did in his life, and I'm sure that he quicky realized his error sometime after sobering up and filled them in.

However, due to poor timing of some aerial photo being taken during the 15 hours these bunkers originally existed, they were "restored" as part of the bunker work at Merion 70 years hence.


TEPaul

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2006, 04:54:34 PM »
MikeC:

You gotta get over your fixation with those two bunkers in front of the 4th green. Maybe it might be better without them but they sure as shootin' are nowhere near as bad as you've always tried to make them out to be.

Matter of fact, I saw something very interesting happen in match play of the US Amateur in those bunkers.

A player was in the right one and the pin was front right. Obviously he felt his position in that right bunker going at the flag or green was very iffy and so he purposely played his shot directly from the right bunker to the left bunker next to it and then went from there.

I doubt he would've though of that or tried something like that if there was just rough grass between the creek and the green.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 04:56:03 PM by TEPaul »

Gib_Papazian

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2006, 05:09:23 PM »
We have a bunker on the left side of #2 on the Lake course that - in my lifetime - has been removed, restored, removed and restored again.

Trouble is, if you do a restoration, you have to choose a date and go with it. In the case of NGLA, Karl told me he chose 1930.

Because Green Committees often play "musical bunkers," I wonder if it is possible in most instances to be absolutely certain what was original and what was not.

I closely examined some routing plans at a course near me at the request of the historian. The problem is that the plans (as drawn) and what was actually built were two different things . . . . . and then, of course, the question arises as to whether this bunker or that bunker was originally there or added later.

If you go back to the original plans, often you are "restoring" something that was never there in the first place - and by extention, forcing an idea that the architect abandoned during construction.

If it looks good, plays right and fits, then don't screw around with it.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2006, 05:13:55 PM »
Tom,

In your research, do you know if the area between the creek and the front of the #4 green was ever either Greenspace or maintained as anything but high grass?

It's not a very wide area (as can be seen from the aerial here http://tinyurl.com/n74er ), and it seems to me that the ideal would be to have it shorn to fairway height, sans bunkers.

I'm just wondering what you've seen here on old pics.

Thanks

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2006, 05:20:08 PM »
Gib:

I would never restore a hole if I thought it had evolved for the better.  I doubt I could convince a club to go along with something like that.

Regarding #12 at SFGC, my understanding is that the original hole played short of a berm across the fairway ... they extended the green to the other side and made a cut through the berm (to create the two "mounds" on either side) at a later date.  I don't know whether it was a green chairman's idea, or Tillinghast on a subsequent visit, or Billy Bell, or someone else.  But we never even discussed changing it, because it's such a great hole.

SFGC also has a Tillinghast plan in one of its dining rooms, showing some different bunkers on 3-4 holes, which is an original design drawing and not an as-built.  The aerial photos are the as-built, and we always referenced them.

There are some members who think we should add new bunkers on the 14th hole to "tighten" the landing area, but right now there are zero bunkers out there which aren't Tillinghast in origin, and I don't want to blow that.  Once you put it one or two you have opened Pandora's box, in my opinion -- why not tighten every hole?  The people who think 14 needs tightening just haven't played the approach shot enough times to figure out how hard it really is from over there.

wsmorrison

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2006, 05:25:05 PM »
Mike,

Prior to the 1930 Amateur, when those bunkers were added, the green came down almost to the creek itself.  There was very little rough between the creek and green, especially on the left.  The bunker on the right of the green was a bit bigger than it is today and there was an island of turf in it.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2006, 05:28:13 PM »
Wayne,

Greenspace down to the water's edge sounds pretty phenomenal.  

wsmorrison

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2006, 05:48:02 PM »
I think so too.  But being able to top a ball and see it hop over the creek onto the green is probably one reason why it was altered.  The downhill lie made it pretty easy to skip one over and on and I guess it was desirable to eliminate it.  For the touring pros and top amateurs, I guess it isn't as much of an issue and a false front leading to the creek would've been pretty cool.  I don't see the bunkers as you do, I like them (visually they are intimidating) and they're removal ain't going to happen nor do I think they should.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2006, 05:56:09 PM »
Wayne,

I'm just hypothesizing.  I know there is no way they are going to be changed (nor the ones on 5) unless William Flynn comes back from the grave and does it himself!  ;)

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2006, 07:14:04 PM »
Gib

Regarding the 12th at SFGC, from memory there was a RR trestle there and they used the mounding in the original design of the hole that fronted the green. I have an article written by Vernon Macan in 1924-25 that says they should cut an opening into the mounding to remove the blindness of the 2nd shot into the green. This is around the time Tillie was on property making changes to the course specifically to the greens and adding bunkers. He could of done it then, but from looking at the changes he was making to the course it seems to me that he would have kept it. Considering the changes Tillie had Bell make in 1930 it seems a little more logical that it may have occurred then.


Tully

TEPaul

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2006, 07:17:33 PM »
"Trouble is, if you do a restoration, you have to choose a date and go with it. In the case of NGLA, Karl told me he chose 1930."

Gib:

Who says so?

What's wrong with doing a comprehensive design evolution report of the golf course and then with an architect deciding through a master plan what works best for the golf course?

Do you really think that if somethng from 1930 on some hole works well and it can be determined that something on another hole didn't work well it should be restored too?

That makes no sense to me and I don't see why it would to an architect either.

Gib_Papazian

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2006, 10:59:01 PM »
Tom,

Excellent point, but it depends on how elastic the word "restoration."

Usually, a golf course has a pedigree and the members hold onto it for dear life . . . . the boast that "our course is a Tillie, Raynor or Ross" is the club equivalent of proving your penis can hang with the Stud Bison.

In the case of NGLA, Karl decided that the course was at its absolute best in 1930 in terms of concentric flow and tried to recreate the feel of the course when C.B. was "done" tinkering.

I suppose you can call it a "restoration," even if the final product is a collection of the best ideas in the architectural history of the course, plus any other improvements that happen to come about.

#12 at SFGC is superb. . . . . but somewhere along the line, Tillie or Bell or Zippy decided to bisect the berm and build the green behind it. . . . . Sean Tully is never wrong about anything, so I shall defer to his superior wisdom.

However, if #14 can be made better with an additional bunker or two . . . . well, not to swell the head of our resident genius, but he has the necessary gravitas to do it.

When I was in film school, a professor was fond of quoting the following:

"Great screenplays are almost never written . . . . they become great when rewritten."

In this case, it depends on who is doing the rewriting, eh?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 11:00:54 PM by Gib Papazian »

ForkaB

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2006, 02:19:16 AM »
Well argued, Gib, but I doubt if you'll fully convince those who think that GCA is an art and changing anything on any course designed by one of the greats is desecration.  Somehow I don't think that Tom Doak (or his disciples) would appreciate Zippy the Pinhead coming in and changing Pacific Dunes, even if what Zippy was doing would probably improve the golf course.

T_MacWood

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2006, 06:32:30 AM »
Rich
Tom Doak and his disciples will be dead and burried by the time someone has to decide if Zippy's work is worth preserving.

There are plenty of examples of obscure men improving great courses: Stutt built some of the best holes at Dornoch, Claude Cockcroft built one of the best par-3s at Royal Melbourne, William Rice Hochster at Quaker Ridge, Captain Torrie at North Hants, Colonel Tippet at Rye and AJ Snyder at Oakmont. Hopefully you can objectively weigh the merits of all changes over the years.

The fact is most great courses are the result of some sort of design and redesign evolution that is why thorough research is important IMO. As example the quirky 12th at GCGC was not original nor were the beautiful Billy Bell bunkers at SFGC.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 06:39:28 AM by Tom MacWood »

ForkaB

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2006, 06:43:32 AM »
Tom

If you really think that Billy ("Tinker") Bell's bunkers at SFGC are "beautiful," well to each his own.......

Rich

PS--Zippy Stutt may have built 6-11 at RDGC, but he certainly didn't find those holes or design them.  Zippy McCulloch and Zippy Grant did, assisted by Zippy ("Golf at a Gallop") Duncan.

T_MacWood

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2006, 06:48:35 AM »
Rich
I know that is what your Dornoch club history states...but again that is why thorough research is important.

IMO SFGC's bunkers today are on the short list of most beautiful bunkers in golf. You don't care for them?

ForkaB

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2006, 06:57:25 AM »
Tom

I very much like todays' bunkers at SFGC.  It's the old ones (see Joel's original post on this thread) that I don't like.

If you know more about Dornoch's 1946 changes than Dr. John, please let us know.  If Stutt was the Stud, so be it.

TEPaul

Re:Back from the dead - case study on restoration
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2006, 07:06:16 AM »
"Tom,
Excellent point, but it depends on how elastic the word "restoration."

Gib:

That too is an excellent point, albeit one that comes up on here so often it has almost become a general theme on this website.

Perhaps this website or a number of its contributors, and some of its very best too, need to step back and take a few deep breaths when it relates to the entire concept and practice of so-called "restoration" architecture.

Perhaps we all need to sit back and look at when this entire phase (fad?) of restoration of classic courses began, and why it began---and what it has accomplished in the last 15 or so years, as well as what it has not accomplished or what it has wrought.

My sense is that before perhaps 1990 the entire concept was never done, never even heard of----the word itself was just not applied to golf course architecture.

But it most certainly is now.

The most important thing to consider, I guess, is not just what it has accomplished to date but in what stage of its cycle do we suppose it is in now.

Can future restorations be even better than the best of what we have seen to date, and if so, how? I don't see why not but how would that be? What about applied maintenance practices that make them play more like they were intended to and not just architectural projects and master plans that make them look sort of what they used to look like? What about the whole idea of "holding a look" into the future---something that certainly has never been done or perhaps even considered?

There's at least one or a few on this board who seem to concentrate on carping against architects who restore courses by claiming they are nothing more than redesigners cloaked as restoration architects.

While I see that point and do understand the details of what  is being said I don't really like the gist. We know what redesigners are for Christ's Sake as we are aware of the decades of redesigns that took place on classic courses with no mind whatsoever to the themes and styles and actual function in play of the architecture of original designers and some of the best in history.

And I doubt any of us can deny that this recent restoration wave has renewed and rekindled pride and interest and a willingness to reeducate ourselves in who those old architects were and what those old architects were up to, what they were thinking and were attempting to accomplish.

America is unique it seems in this way---it rushes forward so fast and so far into so many new and different things. But occassionally in the area of style and culture it seems to stop and then look back to some former time. Why is that and what can we learn from it?

We are doing that now with classic architecture of particularly the Golden Age, an undeniably interesting and perhaps great time and era in golf architecture's fascinating evolution.

We have looked back at it with real interest and we will look back at it even deeper, I'm sure. What will we have taken from it when this restoration wave or phase or fad finally runs its course, if in fact it ever does?

That's the question.

My hope is we will take the essence and the best of its most multi-optional concepts that really do function in play to be sensed by more golfers as their very own unique strategies. Ironically, I think some of our modern and current architects have done just that and perhaps even better than the best of the Golden Age.

My hope is that we will take from it some of what was obviously the joy and mystery of its unpredictableness and that this time it must be viewed and maintained into the future as a distinct style and look and function "in play" and not be homogenized again, as it has been in the past, into some other architectural style to come or again into some "one size fits all" maintenance practices (how American golf managed to wipe out the function of the ground game, perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 of the game of golf in the last fifty years without regretting it or apparently even noticing it is just beyond me).

Maybe the most important word and concept in the future will be the one you used above regarding the WORD restoration, and on that which it may depend---eg "elasticity".

Maybe that's what we need to restore in architecture and not just in the linear sense of total distance as we have done so much of in the past.

Maybe we need to put more of the elasticity of seasonality back into the maintenance and treatment of this distinct type and style and era of architecture, the way it once was because that was the only way it could be back then---not the least reason being because that is the everlasting way of Nature itself.

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