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mike_malone

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Space!!!!
« on: August 21, 2006, 03:50:41 PM »
 This is the one word that I came up with to describe my little visit to Scotland. As I thought about my home course, a parkland course, I thought that all of the changes made , mostly in the 70's, that I want  undone are reductions in the available playing space.

     Interestingly, I found the GROUND space at TOC,N.Berwick, and Musselburgh Old to be distinctly different than my experiences at links courses in Ireland. Although one can certainly move the ball all over the place  in the AIR in Ireland ( based on 10+ courses) the abundance of dunes or severe rough restricted the ground space.


   I admit to a bias that this is what golf is supposed to be. Hit it and go get it and hit it again.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 07:48:35 PM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Bill_McBride

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Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2006, 04:12:04 PM »
The giant open spaces at #1&18 at both North Berwick West (and East as well, one of the neat things at the Glen!) and TOC are wonderful places, huge and wide.  OB right on all three is ever dangerous yet tantalizing.  The elevated tees at both North Berwick courses are even more dramatic than at TOC but of course no backdrop of history as at St. Andrews.

I haven't been to Ireland yet -- Walker Cup 2007 at Royal County Down is on the agenda -- but from all the photos I've seen, the courses appear to be mostly single file down the valleys between the dunes.  A wonderful look but somewhat claustrophobic I'll guess.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2006, 04:15:10 PM »
The giant open spaces at #1&18 at both North Berwick West (and East as well, one of the neat things at the Glen!) and TOC are wonderful places, huge and wide.  OB right on all three is ever dangerous yet tantalizing.  The elevated tees at both North Berwick courses are even more dramatic than at TOC but of course no backdrop of history as at St. Andrews.

I haven't been to Ireland yet -- Walker Cup 2007 at Royal County Down is on the agenda -- but from all the photos I've seen, the courses appear to be mostly single file down the valleys between the dunes.  A wonderful look but somewhat claustrophobic I'll guess.

Bill:

Fret not about Ireland.  Oh, some courses are like that - but even they are FAR from claustrophobic for one used to tree-lined courses.  Rare is the hole that has dunes on both sides so tall that one doesn't have other horizons for view.

And Mayday, you nailed this.  The sense of space over there is what keeps us Americans coming back... and what gets us to love places like Sand Hills.  You just rarely get a sense of space or vastness on our parkland, tree-lined courses.  Links golf like this is just so different...

TH

Phil Benedict

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Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2006, 04:32:33 PM »
I'll bet that I worry about a lost ball on 50% of my tee shots.  Hit it and get it is so much better than hit and (hope to) find it!  Is the added pressure of a possible lost ball a good architectural feature?

Thomas_Brown

Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2006, 05:09:22 PM »
this is something that Rustic, Apache, & Pacific Dunes all do so well.

Before you appropriate all of Scotland to the wide variety, look at Prestwick & Western Gailes.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2006, 05:12:34 PM »
Good point, Thomas.

But compare Prestwick and Western Gailes to Medinah or another tree-lined course... although the former two are "smaller" in terms of the holes themselves, they still feel very vast and spacious compared to parkland, tree-lined courses like Medinah.

At the very base level, it's just a lack of trees that provides for this.... nothing to block horizons.




Mike_Cirba

Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2006, 05:14:31 PM »
Mike,

When I saw the name of your thread, I thought that perhaps you had come up with the idea for some 5,000,000 yard, WIDE-fairwaid, celestial, gravity-free courses while cruising back to the states at 30,000 feet as a surefire way to combat technological advances.  ;)

Plus, better yet, there's no trees up there!  ;D
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 07:25:29 PM by Mike Cirba »

BCrosby

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Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2006, 05:27:13 PM »
American architecture allows practically no option as to where the drive shall go.  BOBBY JONES

Mayday -

Strictly speaking, Jones was wrong, of course. But he ended up having a Scottish revelation not unlike yours. The width, the space, the freedom all conjure up a very different game that - once experienced - changes everything.

The quotation above hints (by what he leaves unsaid) at Jones' feelings about Scotland and how it changed forever the way he thought about gca.

Bob

mike_malone

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Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2006, 07:23:26 PM »
 Thomas,

   When I heard about the possible courses I could play I probably leaned towards those with width. So, I want to play Prestwick and experience something different. And the dunes at Cruden Bay look like the Ireland that I have experienced.



     I almost had a chance to play Preswick but I think my wife would have killed me first.

    We planned to leave by 7 AM to arrive at Glasgow Airport with plenty of time to spare. But , freakishly, as I placed my golf bag in the car my keys got knocked out of my hands and the bag must have hit the "lock" button . Because after I shut the door I heard the locks go "thunk".

    As we had breakfast and waited for help to arrive , our B+B host suggested that we stay in Glasgow overnight if we missed our flight.



  So , I immediately suggested to my wife "This could be a blessing in disguise ! Now I can play Prestwick!"

   She didn't laugh.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 07:43:25 PM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Thomas_Brown

Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2006, 09:14:45 PM »
I agree w/ Huckaby's summary on the view of the horizon giving the expanse of a site.  Bethpage Black is somewhat of an exception in the Northeast - that site seems big to me.

Wannamoissett is a fairly wide course on a very little site.

Ladybank - The most narrow course I've ever played is ironically a perennial Open qualifying site for nearby St. Andrews and Muirfield.

It's inland, parkland and quite contrary to St. Andrews' options.  When I first played it in 1989, I recall the course record was 67 held by Payne Stewart in the 1987 or 1988 qualifier I believe. Haven't checked in years, but E or 1 under used to make it through.

Bandon Dunes is another one that is very narrow in parts on the front nine for reasons I can't justify.  To me, it's a type of false shotmaking for a seaside course.

TEPaul

Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2006, 10:29:59 PM »
I give you the ultra wide and obstacle unencumbered tee shot fairway of the 15th at Pacific Dunes. And, in my opinion, a wonderfully undictating open space it is.

However, while walking it one day with Golf's Most Beloved Figure he proclaimed it a pathetic excuse for the first half of a golf hole.

When I asked him why he expostulated because there was nothing to engage one's interest---eg nothing to do but just hit the tee shot almost anywhere.

When I asked him to consider what came next on the second shot and the remainder of the hole he looked at me like I'd just arrived from Mars.

Fast forward a few years as Golf's Most Beloved Figure and I were walking the 14th hole at Sand Hills, a hole with an interesting semi-speed slot on a portion of the drive zone and one of the most multi-optional second halves of a par 5 I've ever seen and RanoM proclaimed that perhaps he should tell Bill Coore that failing to meld the 14 and 15 fairways constituted the total design destruction of an other-wise super world class golf course.

Never say our leader is not subject to immaculate inconsistency.  ;)

But who am I to criticize the opinions of Ran Morrissett? Maybe at Sand Hills he was still pissed at me for stepping out on the porch of our room for a smoke and then going to dinner without closing the screen door thereby letting into our room every single misquito in Nebraska.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 10:35:11 PM by TEPaul »

Bill_McBride

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Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2006, 10:38:08 PM »
But who am I to criticize the opinions of Ran Morrissett? Maybe at Sand Hills he was still pissed at me for stepping out on the porch of our room for a smoke and then going to dinner without closing the screen door thereby letting into our room every single misquito in Nebraska.

Good story, nice work.  ::)  Actually, Ran mentioned that story not long ago in one of his updates on all the matches he's won in the recent past over a wide variety of opponents.   ;)

Tim Pitner

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Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2006, 11:24:05 AM »

Bandon Dunes is another one that is very narrow in parts on the front nine for reasons I can't justify.  To me, it's a type of false shotmaking for a seaside course.

Thomas,

Where is Bandon Dunes very narrow on the front nine?  I usually hear the opposite, that the fairways are too wide.  

Bill_McBride

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Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2006, 08:30:59 PM »
Tim, both #4 and #5 can play very narrow depending on the wind.  Both are in chutes between heavy gorse.  At least that's what I recall from one play in 2001.

Thomas_Brown

Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2006, 01:18:52 AM »
holes 3 & 4 are narrow to me and out of character w/ the width of the site.  both are some of the better holes out there.

Thomas_Brown

Re:Space!!!!
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2006, 01:19:31 AM »
oops - Bill is right - 4 & 5, 3 is not really that narrow.

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