Article on ESPN.com

[Anthony Butler]

This morning the following article was posted on espn.com by Jason Sobel who is the golf editor on the site.

If Tiger Woods played tennis ...
By Jason Sobel
ESPN.com


http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/pgachampionship06/columns/story?columnist=sobel_jason&id=2555845


I thought this deserved a response and it was as follows:

"Nice try, but tennis has their own Tiger Woods... He's just not American."

Very quickly, I received a response from Mr. Sobel:

"The sport was a metaphor, could have been weightlifting, pole vault, anything. Besides, maybe Federer would simply be the Phil Mickelson of tennis had TW taken up the sport. Never know... Don't take the piece too literally."

I thought that this was an odd reply to what I would describe as a piece of loose journalism. My subsequent email to him below:

Earl Woods once famously said “ If Tiger ran track he’s be kicking Michael Johnson’s ass...” But I wouldn’t take that too literally. :–)

In the fake PC dreamland in which now live, it’s only popular to mention Tiger’s cultural heritage, but let’s face it he has a little too much Thai in his blood to be running  sub-44 400s. The fact is his particular racial mix and upbringing has led him to marry incredible hand eye co-ordination (go to Thailand and see how supple, graceful and precise their movements are in particular cultural & sporting events), feel (the guy can tell the difference between golf balls just a couple of notches apart on the Rockwell scale after one shot), along with extraordinary discipline and mental focus.

Undoubtedly there are three or four other sports he would have excelled at but stating, facetiously or not, that another entirely differently sport would have bent to his will is underestimating the people that dominate that particular sport

Besides he can’t even beat Chris Di Marco at ping pong!


What does anyone else think about the issue raised by Sobel? Is that level of talent that easily transferred to other sports? Only Babe Zaharias has managed to dominate more than one sport and I wouldn't say either of those sport were as competitive as men's tennis and golf are today.

[Phil McDade]

Anthony:

Interesing topic. I always thought John McEnroe -- maybe the most coordinated and graceful athlete I've ever seen -- would've made a great baseball shortstop, or a great soccer player.

I don't think athletic skills are readily transferrable to another sport, at the highest levels. But I think surpreme, top-level athletes -- Tiger, certainly -- could be successes at another level. Tiger strikes me as someone having the skills and mindset to be a Payton Manning, or a Derek Jeter.

Golfers are sometimes derided as non-athletes. But a lot of these guys have good sports genes -- Mucci mentioned Irwin's football days, Nicklaus was a tremendous high-school athlete, and Mickelson comes from a very athletic family (mom played college hoops?).

[Adam Clayman]

AB, Tiger is a fisherman. These other sports you cite are in actuality, games.

[Anthony Butler]

AB, Tiger is a fisherman. These other sports you cite are in actuality, games.

Adam are you (facetiously) referring to ping pong as a game? Under another name it is an Olympic sport known as table tennis... also, if you have ever pole-vaulted, you'll know it's test of your manhood as much as  a sport... talk about a leap of faith.

[ChasLawler]

Anthony – I agree with Mr. Sobel’s response to your email. You’re missing the point of his article.

[Tom Dunne]

I don't know about the "what if" scenario regarding TW and other sports. But I do know that Roger Federer is every bit Tiger's equal when it comes to his dominance of his own sport.

David Foster Wallace (a big tennis fan, as readers of "Infinite Jest" know) wrote a feature on Federer for the Sunday Times this weekend. It's definitely worth a look.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/sports/playmagazine/20federer.html?_r=1&ref=playmagazine&oref=slogin

[Adam Clayman]

Ping Pong is most certainly a game. Pole Vault, is probably more of a sport. Interesting distinction.

Just because journalists, and most modern day humans, are lazy about their use of words and their definitions, doesnt mean everyone should blindly follow their lead.

Most of what we call sports, are in fact games. Football, Baseball, Tennis. Where fishing hunting and GOLF, are sports. Tournaments are in fact games, based on the sport.

Read Max Behr for further study.

[JohnV]

In the '90s, my old group at Pumpkin Ridge occasionally argued about who was the greatest two-sport athlete of all time over the years.  John Kirk usually picked Deion Sanders, I went with Bo Jackson and one of the others in our group said that if Jack Nicklaus could get a ball over the net in tennis it was him (a little bias there.)  I forget who our fourth usually picked.

In reality it was probably either Jim Thorpe or Babe D.

Could Tiger have been successful in a different sport?  Probably, given he had the motivation and training.  His physical gifts and his mental ability would have gotten him a long way.  Could he have been the best ever in that sport?   I don't know, but maybe.

[Glenn Spencer]

In the '90s, my old group at Pumpkin Ridge occasionally argued about who was the greatest two-sport athlete of all time over the years.  John Kirk usually picked Deion Sanders, I went with Bo Jackson and one of the others in our group said that if Jack Nicklaus could get a ball over the net in tennis it was him (a little bias there.)  I forget who our fourth usually picked.

In reality it was probably either Jim Thorpe or Babe D.

Could Tiger have been successful in a different sport?  Probably, given he had the motivation and training.  His physical gifts and his mental ability would have gotten him a long way.  Could he have been the best ever in that sport?   I don't know, but maybe.

NO, it was Bo Jackson!!!! You were right and always will be!!!!

[Wayne_Kozun]

I don't know about the "what if" scenario regarding TW and other sports. But I do know that Roger Federer is every bit Tiger's equal when it comes to his dominance of his own sport.

I disagree with this.  Many (most?) think Tiger is the greatest ever at his sport, or second after Jack.  How many people say that Federer is the greatest tennis player ever?  Federer is currently in a 7-way tie for 6th most grand slam titles.  Tiger is in second by himself for major championships in golf.  Tiger has sustained his high level for a decade (arguably since he was a junior) and has been ranked number one for almost all of the last ten years.  Federer has been number one in the world for about 2.5 years.

In other words, talk to me when Federer has another five years of dominating his sport!

[Michael Moore]

I nearly started a thread on the Wallace article, so I am glad it has come up here.  The author goes fairly in-depth regarding the sweet spot of the modern racket and concludes that

"Subtlety, touch, and finesse are not dead in the power-baseline era. For it is, still, in 2006, very much the power-baseline era: Roger Federer is a first-rate, kick-ass power-baseliner. It’s just that that’s not all he is. There’s also his intelligence, his occult anticipation, his court sense, his ability to read and manipulate opponents, to mix spins and speeds, to misdirect and disguise, to use tactical foresight and peripheral vision and kinesthetic range instead of just rote pace — all this has exposed the limits, and possibilities, of men’s tennis as it’s now played."

This is something that is largely ignored by the golf distancephobics, that today's professionals do more, not less, with modern equipment.

[Tom Dunne]

Wayne,

No less than John McEnroe has said that Federer may well be the best ever. I do take your point about the ability to make a sustained run, though you should also note that I never said anything about "best ever". When it comes to current dominance, though (which was my actual point), Federer, like Tiger, is head and shoulders above the field.

[ForkaB]

Anthony:

Interesing topic. I always thought John McEnroe -- maybe the most coordinated and graceful athlete I've ever seen -- would've made a great baseball shortstop, or a great soccer player.

I don't think athletic skills are readily transferrable to another sport, at the highest levels. But I think surpreme, top-level athletes -- Tiger, certainly -- could be successes at another level. Tiger strikes me as someone having the skills and mindset to be a Payton Manning, or a Derek Jeter.

Golfers are sometimes derided as non-athletes. But a lot of these guys have good sports genes -- Mucci mentioned Irwin's football days, Nicklaus was a tremendous high-school athlete, and Mickelson comes from a very athletic family (mom played college hoops?).

Phil

McEnroe wasn;t even close to being the best athlete amongst his contemporary tennis players.  Nastase was.  Also, there has never been a left handed shortstop in the entire history of major league baseball.

Rich

[ForkaB]

Oh yeah...

And you have to go back to Ellsworth Vines in the 40's to find a guy who could play both tennis and golf anywhere near at the highest levels.

Let's face it--golf is a game for non-athletes and geezers.  That's why we love it!

[Phil Benedict]

Wayne,

No less than John McEnroe has said that Federer may well be the best ever. I do take your point about the ability to make a sustained run, though you should also note that I never said anything about "best ever". When it comes to current dominance, though (which was my actual point), Federer, like Tiger, is head and shoulders above the field.

The tennis talking heads regularly say Federer is on the path to being the best ever.  McEnroe is not at all an outlier in this regard.  Typical comment is that if Pete Sampras was in his prime today Federer would be favored on any surface.  I have never heard a golf commentator say that Tiger would be favored against Jack, even though it's obvious, at least to me, that Tiger has way more game than Jack ever dreamed of having.  

Wayne is right that Federer is as dominent in his game as Tiger is in golf, and just as stunning to watch.

[Doug Ralston]

Transferable skills?

I am a Chess Master. I am also very stong at Go, Chinese Chess, Western checkers, and Bridge. Those are all sports [yes, sports!] that are enhanced by a certain ability to generate ideas, which I have possessed in every cognitive aspect of my life. So much for gloating.

I suspect many truly great atheletes [I would suggest Carl Lewis], would have done well in quite a few other sports. Not just his physique, but his drive would translate very well. Someone like Joe Frasier, whose skills are much more 'specific', would not translate nearly so well. [For evidence, see his absurd performance in 'Superstars", where he almost drowned during a swimming race....lol].

Tiger would almost certainly have been good at whatever he tried. He is driven to keep getting better [thus the swing changes even when he is dominant].

Doug

[Tony_Muldoon]

McEnroe wasn;t even close to being the best athlete amongst his contemporary tennis players.  Nastase was.  

Did I ever happen to name drop that I was there when Borg won the first of 5 consecutive Wimbledon titles? That day it was Nastase another day it was McEnroe... Talk about an athlete....

I don't see how you can say a person has all the attributes to transfer successfully to a top level in another sport.  If it was all just physical ability, you might think McEnroe, with his stunning timing and amazing dexterity could play guitar better than that

[Jim Nugent]

Anthony – I agree with Mr. Sobel’s response to your email. You’re missing the point of his article.

Cabell, that's what I think too.  

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony – I agree with Mr. Sobel’s response to your email. You’re missing the point of his article.

Cabell, that's what I think too.  

I would expect nothing less from you, Jim.

To give the slow learners on this thread a leg-up, can you imagine the uproar if the tennis editor of ESPN.com, the day after Federer's Wimbledon win, had posted an article speculating that if Federer had taken up golf, Tiger would still looking for his 8th major or the such like?

[tonyt]

"Ping pong" is a game. Table tennis is a sport, and a pretty darned comprehensive one on the pro scene in Europe. Don't confuse the two.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Anthony – I agree with Mr. Sobel’s response to your email. You’re missing the point of his article.

Cabell, that's what I think too.  

I would expect nothing less from you, Jim.

To give the slow learners on this thread a leg-up, can you imagine the uproar if the tennis editor of ESPN.com, the day after Federer's Wimbledon win, had posted an article speculating that if Federer had taken up golf, Tiger would still looking for his 8th major or the such like?

Anthony - you're still entirely missing the point of the article and you call other posters slow learners?

The point of the article is this: what if Tiger Woods were not a golfer, but instead he were a tennis player, or a weightlifter, or a rodeo cowboy or a cop? Get it?

Would golf be more interesting then?

That's all Sobel is asking.

Tennis has nothing to do with the point Sobel is trying to make. It is merely used as a figurative example of another profession that would keep Tiger away from competitive golf.

I cannot believe that I am explaining this after Sobel already explained it to you...

[George Pazin]

Tiger would almost certainly have been good at whatever he tried. He is driven to keep getting better [thus the swing changes even when he is dominant].

I, too, think he would be good at many different things, but there is a gigantic, enormous gulf between being good at something and being world class.

Heck, compared to most of the world, I'm pretty good at calculus, but compared to my profs and some of my fellow students at college, I'm not even within sniffing distance of the Hooters Tour.

 

In other words, it takes a lot more than drive to succeed at the level we're talking about, it takes drive, incredible physical skills, work ethic, even a little luck.

I'd probably favor Bo over Deion, but both were phenomenal.

P.S. I thought the more interesting aspect of the article was the various speculations as to how golf would've developed without Tiger.

[Doug Siebert]

I am a Chess Master. I am also very stong at Go, Chinese Chess, Western checkers, and Bridge. Those are all sports [yes, sports!] that are enhanced by a certain ability to generate ideas, which I have possessed in every cognitive aspect of my life. So much for gloating.

Chess, Go, Bridge?  SPORTS?  I do not think that word means what you think it does.

I'm not even sure I'd call golf a sport, at best it is a cross between a sport and a game.  But nothing where you sit on your ass the entire time and think can be called a sport by any definition with which I'm familar or will buy

[Jim Nugent]

Here's what I got out of the article.  First, a kind of "It's a wonderful life" story of what golf would be like without the terminator, Tiger Woods.  

Second, pointing out how unprecedentedly fantastic Woods really is.  Look what happens in the story without him.  Micheel wins the PGA at Medinah, shooting the lowest score (13 under) any player could hope to achieve.  Sergio becomes the youngest major winner since Tom Morris.  Ernie has five majors, Phil has four.  (Actually I bet they would both have more without Woods, just as I bet Arnie would have won well over ten without Jack.)  

All fantastic achievements.  And golf has plenty of great players in this alternate history, just no Jack, and in fact there can never be another Jack, his majors' record can never be touched or even approached.  Golf has changed too much.  In reality this is what I used to constantly read and hear, after Jack's big days ended.  Then, of course, Tiger Woods came along and blew all the old assumptions out of the water.  

The interesting thing to me is that even the most dominant player of all time "only" wins 25% of the time or so.  I can't think of any other sport that has so much parity.  Though I do think Tiger will win more than 25% of all majors for the next several years.  

[Andrew Thomson]

Federer is more dominant on the Tennis court than Tiger is on the golf course.  

however, they are different events.  Federer only needs to beat 7 blokes to win a major.  Tiger needs to beat everyone.  Tennis is man against man, Golf is Man versus the field.

Regarding people being good at alternative sports.  There are plenty of blokes in Australia who when they come to the end of their schooling are faced with a choice between 1 of 3 football codes (depending where they live) and cricket.  There are countless cricketers who could have been great footballers, and vice-versa.  Michael Kasperwicz was selected ahead of Toutai Kefu in the Australian Schoolboys Rugby side for example.  Some of the Top AFL players were extremely good cricketers - only 20 years ago when the sports weren't full-time professional, many of the more talented gents played league football in the winter and shield cricket in the summer.