Medinah Member Remark

[Ken Fry]

I've been reading all the different viewpoints posted about The PGA Championship.  I'm still at a loss why people are looking for a "blood bath" because a tournament is considered a "major."  The first three pages of the leaderboard is impressive with the wide array of successful players (bombers, short hitters, etc.).

Let me just say every tournament identifies the individual playing best THAT week, not the best player in the world because the greens and fairways are hard and a winning score is +whatever.

What really got me last night was an individual identifying himself as a Medinah member who wrote an e-mail to the Golf Channel that he was "embarassed" by the scores.

So is this what it all really comes down to?  If a course produces high scores the results provide bragging rights to members/hometown folks/fans etc?  Anything less than that and the golf course stinks??

Ken

[TEPaul]

Ken:

I think we all know how prevalent that attitude is---unfortunately.

That said, this golf course and this tournament would be a lot more interesting to me if those greens offered a bit more strategic interest than a dart board.

Firm them up to a particular extent and they most definitely would.

But that kind of thing can't be prevented if the weather doesn't cooperate----there's no question of that in golf and set-up. That fact none of us can alter or rationalize away.

But if the PGA wanted to set up this course intentionally with greens as soft and receptive to aerial approaches as Medinah's are this week I think they should be ashamed of themselves.

I'm not exactly saying the PGA should apologize to the club and its membership but the President of the PGA should take himself and all his minions out into the middle of the golf course following the award ceremony and quietly but very sincerely apologize to Medinah, the golf course itself.  

[JR Potts]

It is embarassing because the members put a lot of money into the course to get it to play in a firm and fast manner.  With soft conditions and no speed, the greens have no teeth and the course becomes way too easy for these players and doesn't play as intended.

I share the embarassment.  Years of preparation and the best we can present are "Stay Puff" greens.

[TEPaul]

BTW, I'm a huge fan of Tiger, always have been and I just can't believe that any golfer, even him, can bring it home with a Saturday night lead as often as he has in his career. He's probably somewhere in the mid ninetieth percentile that way and that stat is truly mind-boggling to me and way too little understood and appreciated, in my opinion.

I generally think that for some reason he just won't do it most every time, like he has done, even if I want him to. And this is no different today. I feel that this time somebody is going to match him and catch him on a course set up like this one with super receptive greens but I've felt that before and it just doesn't seem to ever happen.

But if his driver and tee shot selections aren't working today as well as they have in the previous three days even he's gonna have a problem. Almost all the competitors within easy reach of him today are remarkably straight off the tees. Not that Tiger is trying to "flog" it this week but of late he is nowhere near his primary competitors for straight. I think the only question about him today is can he hit enough fairways?

[Ken Fry]

Tom,

Agreed on the soft green conditions, but why apologize?  Medinah is on the world-wide stage hosting one of the four majors and will make a considerable amount of money when this is all said and done.

Is a major a major because the best golfers get together to play, therefore testing themselves on the same course and conditions or is a major suppose to provide the harshest conditions?  Won't the best player emerge regardless?

Ken

[JR Potts]

Ken:

A lot of the anger/embarassment derives from the fact that, as members, we have been playing in less than ideal conditions (slow, soft greens) for two years because "they were getting the greens ready for the PGA."  Now the PGA is here, and the greens are in the same condition that they have been in for years.  

[Ken Fry]

I share the embarassment.  Years of preparation and the best we can present are "Stay Puff" greens.

Embarassment at what?  Chicago gets to host another major and at the end of the day, I'll bet a worthy champion will be crowned.  Look at all the players within 6 shots of the lead.  Would you call any of them "fluke" winners if they pull it out today?

I'd bet ANY tournament would take the current leaderboard at this time.  Is that due to or in spite of the conditions?

Ken

[Ken Fry]

A lot of the anger/embarassment derives from the fact that, as members, we have been playing in less than ideal conditions (slow, soft greens) for two years because "they were getting the greens ready for the PGA."  Now the PGA is here, and the greens are in the same condition that they have been in for years.  

Ryan,

Maybe this will send a message to clubs who bring in "doctors" to rework their course to prepare for majors (finally).  Maybe that formula is not the answer.

Ken

[TEPaul]

Ken:

Sure, but I don't think this is doing complete justice to the golf course and its inherent architectural make-up. And I'm not sure I'd say some of those prime contenders today are some of the most complete golfers in the world.

But you're right, everybody tees it up and faces the same thing. Tiger hasn't been anywhere near the straightest out there in the last few years but he seems to be strategizing the piss out of his game and his bag to overcome that at Medinah, and obviously this little five wood of his is his ace in the hole this week.

[JR Potts]

The tournament has been incredibly entertaining.  However, it is like having a house party.  You usually clean up your house and get it looking good before having guests over.  Whether or not you have any fun usually has no bearing on whether there are dishes in the sink or whether the bed is made and lawn mowed.

[JR Potts]

A lot of the anger/embarassment derives from the fact that, as members, we have been playing in less than ideal conditions (slow, soft greens) for two years because "they were getting the greens ready for the PGA."  Now the PGA is here, and the greens are in the same condition that they have been in for years.  

Ryan,

Maybe this will send a message to clubs who bring in "doctors" to rework their course to prepare for majors (finally).  Maybe that formula is not the answer.

Ken

I have no complaints with the "doctoring."  In fact, I love what he has done.  I have a problem with the green maintenance however.  Now, whether that is the PGA's fault, our Super's fault or Rees' fault - I don't know.

[Paul_Turner]

This tournament is the embodiment "Target Golf".

[Ken Fry]

I'm still at a loss for the "embarassment" factor.  The greens are softer than I believe anyone would want.  So be it.  Is or will Medinah be thought less of because the scores went low as a result of it?

The Masters has produced a winning score between -8 and -18 since 1991.  Even after the "toughening" Fazio did, both Tiger and DiMarco shoot -12 last year.  Does that mean Augusta National is an easy course?  Does anyone think less of Augusta National because of these results?

Opinions vary about Medinah #3.  It's a tough golf course despite what these guys are doing to it this week.  As Ryan mention in his party scenario, Medinah is a beautiful house, should the party be thought less of because someone put Barry Manilow on the stereo?

Ken

[Jason Blasberg]

That said, this golf course and this tournament would be a lot more interesting to me if those greens offered a bit more strategic interest than a dart board.

Firm them up to a particular extent and they most definitely would.

But that kind of thing can't be prevented if the weather doesn't cooperate----there's no question of that in golf and set-up. That fact none of us can alter or rationalize away.

Tom:

I couldn't agree more . . . understanding that weather cannot be controlled and thus major championship courses will get soggy from time to time, I think this PGA illustrates clearly that the concerns about ball distance overtaking design are overstated.

The reality is these guys could play at 8,000 yards and if the greens are not firm and fast and not that severe they'll chew it up.  

The key to challenging today's professionals is creating uncertainty.  When tee balls hold fairways and approach shots hold greens there is no uncertainty and the only variable becomes shot execution.  

Firm and fast at 6,800 yards on Augusta like greens would be far more challenging for these guys than soft and wet at 7,800 yards and relatively benign greens.

[Phil McDade]

I've often read that the pros play the game -- probably esp. so at majors -- backwards. That is, they look at what the green (and the green complex) has to offer (pin position, slope, receptiveness to irons, where not to be if you hit a bad shot), and work back from there. Based on my viewing so far, it seems like most of the guys near the leaderboard (esp. true w/ Tiger, but I really noticed it with Donald yesterday), these guys know that nearly any iron will stop on these greens, and -- working backwards from there -- are focused mainly on the tee on hitting the fairway and putting it in the proper position off the fairway. Donald hit a lot of non-drivers off the tee, for a guy who's not very long, but left himself with a lot of putts in the 10-25 foot range because he knew most any iron he hit into the green would hold. Thus, player's comments that the course "isn't playing that long," because they are able to hit a lot of non-drivers off the tee and still have good shots are birdies.

That, to me, seems like the key difference in the set-up between Medinah and WF at the US Open. WF was just as long as Medinah, but tougher green complexes, more severely sloped greens, and -- if I recall -- somewhat firmer/faster playing conditions brought more risk into a player's decision off the tee. At WF, there seem to be a real difference attacking those greens w/ 9-iron vs. 6-iron. At Medinah, it doesn't seem to be that big a difference.

[mikes1160]

Ryan Potts,

You are the member superintendents everywhere LOATHE........there is no wind, considerable rain as of late, and if Medinah/the PGA really wanted "gin down" the scores, they would have turned two par 5's in 4's.......cripes

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ken Fry,

Shouldn't a major require the production of shot variety within the context of using the entire set of clubs ?

Do you think Medinah presents that requirement ?

[tlavin]

Ken Fry,

Shouldn't a major require the production of shot variety within the context of using the entire set of clubs ?

Do you think Medinah presents that requirement ?

I think those days are over for the pro tour.

[Joe Hancock]

........there is no wind, considerable rain as of late

Mike,

Do you attribute all the softness of the greens to the rain as of late?

I saw no discoloration that would indicate there had been any moisture stress on greens, roughs or fairways. I would bet anything that there has been water applied to make sure there wasn't any "blemishes" either. This is a huge TV production that has zero tolerance for anything but monotonous green.

Ryan has a legitimate point, IMO.

Joe

[Greg Tallman]

I share the embarassment.  Years of preparation and the best we can present are "Stay Puff" greens.

So mother nature has the final say on if the course is embarrassing or a great test of golf?

Sounds like something is missing?

As another poster identified... this course is the exact opposite of a great course in Pinehurst #2 which can be prepped for an open with a few weeks time and return to a great, enjoyable, fair test for everyday play within a couple of days following the event. I hope the good people of Medinah do not make a rash decision and consider more changes even if a mistake was made in the contouring of the putting surfaces assuming defending par against the world's best was the goal.  

[Ken Fry]

Pat,

In my mind, a major should require players to properly strategize and execute their shots while dealing with the pressures of a major event.  The venue will dictate how much strategizing and variety can take place.

I think Medinah require players to produce shots dictated by narrow playing corridors.  Some people like that and feel there is more importance on accuracy and precision.  Others believe it eliminates strategic options.  I fall into the later category, but this is a major and all players are playing the same course.  One way or another, the best player of the week will arise.

Should the members of Medinah be embarassed and look for someone to blame that the greens were soft or be proud of the fact they are once again on the international stage?

Hope to see you this fall.

Ken

[Kyle Harris]

Ken:

A lot of the anger/embarassment derives from the fact that, as members, we have been playing in less than ideal conditions (slow, soft greens) for two years because "they were getting the greens ready for the PGA."  Now the PGA is here, and the greens are in the same condition that they have been in for years.  

That logic seems almost like preparing an obese man for a diet by overfeeding him.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Shivas, you're old--you might know--I don't--I'm young  and East Coast
When did Rees redesign Medinah?  Did you play the old Medinah--did its greens have more character  than they do now?  

[Wayne_Kozun]

A lot of the anger/embarassment derives from the fact that, as members, we have been playing in less than ideal conditions (slow, soft greens) for two years because "they were getting the greens ready for the PGA."  Now the PGA is here, and the greens are in the same condition that they have been in for years.

In Tiger's post-tournament press conference he discussed that the greens were soft because the greens are newer and the root complex was not yet set.

Can the agronomists or superintendents here comment on that?

If it is generally true, and I believe it is, then why would we (or the PGA, the Medinah memberhip, etc) expect the greens to play firm and give the players fits?  Maybe they should give the greens at least five years to set after beign rebuilt?

[Kyle Harris]

Unless the sod was laid in the past 6 months or so, I don't see how this could even be a problem. After a year or so, the roots should go as deep as the superintendent will allow them.