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Kevin Edwards

Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« on: August 19, 2006, 04:33:59 PM »
Is the 7500 yard championship golf course a silly joke?  Medinah CC has shown itself to be a joke and the PGA of America has the course setup in a way that is not even suitable for a club championship yet alone a MAJOR title.  Medinah’s greens and greens complexes offer no fear.  I was shocked to see that Rees Jones’ new 17th green has a total elevation change of 19 INCHES from highest point to lowest point.

I would guess that you could go out to Plainfield CC, Huntingdon Valley CC, Aronimink CC or even Alpine CC tomorrow and double cut the greens, put pins in good but not over the top pin locations and play from the tips and get higher scoring averages then we are seeing at THE PGA CHAMPIONSHIP.

Comments?

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2006, 04:38:30 PM »
It looks like you basic putting contest to me.   Is the entire field going to be under par?   Feels like Indian Wells to me.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2006, 04:41:09 PM »
Kevin,

One must remember that Medinah is a par 72 and as such its  length when compared to par 70 golf courses must be adjusted.

However, I think Medinah proves that it doesn't matter how long you make golf courses, that defending par isn't confined to adding length.

Certainly the soft conditions for a major are puzzling.

I can't speak to the current version of the golf course, but, it seems that it's become a putting contest on what appear to be "true" greens.  They also seem to lack substantive contour and slope.

Hopefully, a lightbulb or alarm bell will go off in the hallways of the offices of the governing bodies, and they'll wake up to the fact that the ongoing distance rat race doesn't protect par.

Sandy_Barrens_Jr.

Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2006, 04:48:36 PM »
Aye Patrik, U is right again!

I'm anxious to see how the Chicago congnescenti defend par on this one...

(Meaning they will be defending Medinah as good as Medinah is defending bogie.)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2006, 04:51:34 PM by Sandy Barrens Jr. »

Kevin Edwards

Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2006, 04:48:46 PM »
How right you are.  Medinah might be a brute for less skilled golfers and even good amateurs but we see what elite players can do if you don't make them uncomfortable and give them decisions that have real consequences.

The Bob Hope Chrysler PGA Championship of America.

I honestly think those courses I mentioned could do better tomorrow on no notice then Medinah with years of "doctoring" just for this event.

Sandy_Barrens_Jr.

Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2006, 04:52:37 PM »
It's no wonder Jeff Brauer designs easy courses.....

(Just kidding Jeff!) ;)

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2006, 05:22:40 PM »
This just goes to show that there is no need to limit the distance a golf ball can travel.  With Luke Donald and Mike Weir at the top of the leaderboard right now, it's plain to see that the key to limiting scores in professional majors is to contest them on golf courses that are sufficiently difficult around the greens.  Medinah is just another PGA Tour venue, in my opinion.  It's not special.  There are only a couple exciting holes.  The greens, compared to those of the better major venues, are flat and relatively lightly guarded (with the exception of the par threes).  Give me PGA venues like Baltusrol, Whistling Straits, and Oak Hill, and just about all US Open venues of the past few years (especially Bethpage, Shinnecock, Pinehurst, and Winged Foot) over places like Medinah and Valhalla.  

To me, the majors are supposed to be brutal-yet-fair tests of golf, with the winning score being no lower than -6 to -8.  I believe that the way to do this is to first find a golf course with sufficient difficulty around the greens (which by definition will also put sufficient pressure on the long game), and then to grow the rough to a penal length that punishes long and short hitters.  This second necessity is why the Masters has yielded a lot of low scores in recent years.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2006, 06:16:13 PM »
To me, the majors are supposed to be brutal-yet-fair tests of golf, with the winning score being no lower than -6 to -8.  I believe that the way to do this is to first find a golf course with sufficient difficulty around the greens (which by definition will also put sufficient pressure on the long game), and then to grow the rough to a penal length that punishes long and short hitters.  This second necessity is why the Masters has yielded a lot of low scores in recent years.
I am not defending Medinah, but the concept of needing high scores at a major - What do you think of Hoylake and The Old Course?  They have hosted majors with very low scores.

Why does the score really matter.  If this tournament was held at Merion this year and the winner was -20 would we be seeing posts saying that Merion is a joke.

Par is irrelevant!  If this was a US Open with the same setup par would be 70 instead of 72 and Tiger would be leading at -8 rather than -14.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2006, 06:27:32 PM »
Wayne

It looks to me like any regular tour event this week.  The length has no effect.  They are not hitting driver much or even three wood off the tees.  The balls sticks where it lands on fairways and the approach shots are darts.  Give them the yardage and dial it in.  The greens offer no challenge or imagination for short game skills.  

Hoylake and the Old Course were very different in that regard.

Lets hope that Merion gets a respectable setup and it will not be as mindless as the golf I've seen the past three days.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2006, 07:26:46 PM »
Wayne

It looks to me like any regular tour event this week.  The length has no effect.  They are not hitting driver much or even three wood off the tees.  The balls sticks where it lands on fairways and the approach shots are darts.  Give them the yardage and dial it in.  The greens offer no challenge or imagination for short game skills.  
But how much does the weather have to do with this, just like benign wind at Hoylake and TOC?  

If it had been dry in Chicago the last few days it wouldn't be nearly as easy to hold the greens.  Look at Donald's shot into 17 today - it looked like it pretty much plugged in his pitch mark!  Players have been able to hold the greens from the rough - just as Tiger did at 18 which shouldn't happen.  Is that due to the wet weather or the course?


Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2006, 07:33:35 PM »
This dart-shooting contest of a tournament is one more reason to have the fourth major played at global venues (as one GCA'er recently suggested).

Australia, Asia, New Zealand - There are some worthy venues there and if these aren't enough, then Tom Doak will build more!








PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2006, 07:44:02 PM »
Wayne

It looks to me like any regular tour event this week.  The length has no effect.  They are not hitting driver much or even three wood off the tees.  The balls sticks where it lands on fairways and the approach shots are darts.  Give them the yardage and dial it in.  The greens offer no challenge or imagination for short game skills.  
But how much does the weather have to do with this, just like benign wind at Hoylake and TOC?  

If it had been dry in Chicago the last few days it wouldn't be nearly as easy to hold the greens.  Look at Donald's shot into 17 today - it looked like it pretty much plugged in his pitch mark!  Players have been able to hold the greens from the rough - just as Tiger did at 18 which shouldn't happen.  Is that due to the wet weather or the course?



Wayne - It has n't been raining that much around here that much, I don't think...sure enough, I checked :the city of Medinah got .01 inch(es) of rain total for the 13 days prior to the start on Thurs

I wonder why the greens were so soft for the first round??
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2006, 07:46:13 PM »
This is the show the PGA wants. Right down to the schizophrenic mow lines.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2006, 08:24:49 PM »
To me, the majors are supposed to be brutal-yet-fair tests of golf, with the winning score being no lower than -6 to -8.  I believe that the way to do this is to first find a golf course with sufficient difficulty around the greens (which by definition will also put sufficient pressure on the long game), and then to grow the rough to a penal length that punishes long and short hitters.  This second necessity is why the Masters has yielded a lot of low scores in recent years.
I am not defending Medinah, but the concept of needing high scores at a major - What do you think of Hoylake and The Old Course?  They have hosted majors with very low scores.

Why does the score really matter.  If this tournament was held at Merion this year and the winner was -20 would we be seeing posts saying that Merion is a joke.

Par is irrelevant!  If this was a US Open with the same setup par would be 70 instead of 72 and Tiger would be leading at -8 rather than -14.
Why doesn't score matter?  How else would we measure the success of one golfer against the field?  For the record, I believe that Merion would (and will in 2013) yield higher scores than Medinah because the PGA would need to set it up more like a US Open; thicker rough, slicker greens.

I wasn't a fan of the low scores posted at Hoylake or TOC either.  I was talking specifically about the three American majors.  I'll concede that scores at the Open Championship are far more dependent on the weather than the other majors; heck, the playoff score in 1999 at Carnoustie was +6, and Tiger won in 2000 at TOC at -18 (?).

Wouldn't we agree that majors are supposed to thin out the field and show who's best?  I see no better way to do that than to raise the bar by providing a tougher golf course with a tougher setup.  The way to measure that is to look at the scores.  By that logic, Medinah is just another PGA Tour venue in terms of difficulty.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2006, 08:29:28 PM »
And it's a difficult argument to make that it's a bad show, given the leaderboard.

I agree that length isn't the way to defend par against these guys, but that presumes you want to defend par. The PGA appears to understand that we need four separate majors, not two U.S. Opens, a Masters and a British Open.

It's not a particularly interesting golf course, but I think it's a going to be a well-remembered tournament.

"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2006, 08:43:43 PM »
It is funny that most of you bitch about setting courses up to protect par but then bash them when they are not protecting par.  

Nevertheless, in my estimation, there is absolutely NO excuse for the soft greens on Thurday and Friday.  As many of you know, I have been working on 17 and for three days I have been watching ball after ball land on the green and stop in its divot.  I would LOVE to know why.

The greens at Medinah have been soft and slow all year.  I just wrote it off as being so as they were protecting them for the event.  Apparently not!  

One must remember though, that the course is still a 72.  They wanted to make 5 and 10 par 4s...the members resisted.  Now we get these scores.

Anyways, it is turning out to be a great tournament...so I'll continue to put my absolute disgust aside and enjoy the tournament.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2006, 08:44:31 PM by Ryan Potts »

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2006, 08:58:27 PM »
There is nothing wrong with Medinah.  It is a fine course and for any one of us would be a challenge.  The problem lies with advancement.  Everything has become TOO good.  The players are too good, the equipment is too good, and the courses maintenance is too good.

Contrast this PGA to the PGAs of the late 1940s.  The players had 2 or 3 woods, irons of 1-9 or 2-9, 2 wedges, and a putter.  First the ball was not only shorter, but also prone to be inconsistent.  Thus each ball was more likely to behave differently than the prior.  Today's ball length is only part of the issue.  It is so consistent that the manufacturing variables become almost non-existent to even Tiger Woods.  As for the clubs, not only were the heads smaller and the misses worse off.  But also, the players were not able to finely tune a set as they can today.  Even the pros had off-the-rack clubs, which were then adjusted by the feel only.  Finally, when a wood broke an exact replica could not be immediately produced.  It could take years for a player to replace a lost or broken driver.

Next, the grass and sand is now so perfectly groomed that the player knows almost exactly how the ball will react if that player makes the intended stroke.  This is especially true on the greens.  The ball rolls so perfectly during a pro tournament that 8 and 10 footers have become the equivalent of 3 and 4 footers.

All of this results in every pro playing with extreme confidence.  There is no fear of a slight miss-hit.  There is no fear of a bumpy putt.  There is no fear of the sand being too hard, too soft, or too shallow.  There is no fear of the ball doing anything funny or unusual.

The ironic thing is that most courses are groomed into ideal conditions for the perfect golfers, yet the casual golfers have to play with imperfect conditions and with equipment which is not ideally suited to that person.

We can not undo technology, or force professionals to play with equipment which is imperfect.  However, we can force professionals to play with equipment which is not quite so forgiving: v-grooves, driver heads no bigger then the typical persimmon heads from 30 years ago, and a limit of maximum loft.  Also, perhaps a limit on the size of the putter head.  Finally, perhaps we have finally reached the point where a set needs to be limited to 10 or 8 clubs.  When a professional can carry 2 drivers and 3 wedges, there are too many clubs in the bag.  Also, limiting a set to 8 or 10 would require more shot making, even with all the other perfect conditions.

Second, although a course can not be intentionally tricked-up, it does lead one to wonder why they try to make a course so difficult, while also making the conditions unusually perfect.  Would it not be better to present the course in the same manner as that course would be presented for say a member-guest weekend tournament?  With the only exceptions being to just try to dry out the course more so for the majors and to just let the rough grow and get the greens to the maximum speed possible under normal maintenance.

Why should the fairways be unusually perfect?  Why is the rough being "fluffed"?  I think I do know one argument for giving the best players the best conditions.  I believe that we here in America do not like luck to be a factor.  However, the purpose of keeping luck as a factor is not just for sake of the lucky and unlucky bounces and lies, but rather as another test of each player's perseverance.

With more exacting equipment, less “specialty clubs”, and more typical golf course maintenance, these perfectly fine turned golfers would be forced to play a greater variety of shots, and the professional game would receive an injection of excitement.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Brent Hutto

Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2006, 09:13:25 PM »
However, we can force professionals to play with equipment which is not quite so forgiving: v-grooves, driver heads no bigger then the typical persimmon heads from 30 years ago, and a limit of maximum loft.  Also, perhaps a limit on the size of the putter head.  Finally, perhaps we have finally reached the point where a set needs to be limited to 10 or 8 clubs.  When a professional can carry 2 drivers and 3 wedges, there are too many clubs in the bag.  Also, limiting a set to 8 or 10 would require more shot making, even with all the other perfect conditions.

Yeah, and playing on those soft greens at Medinah all of that would conspire to make the leading score about -11 or -12 instead of -14.

Any course that's playable at all is going to yield low scores to the best players in the world when iron shots spot within a foot or two of their pitch mrk. The low scores aren't due to the players having 14 clubs and large-headed drivers. That stuff is maybe a stroke here or there. Maybe.

It's like when the wind doesn't blow at St. Andrews or Hoylake. Everybody knows the best players in the world will shoot lights out. When the greens are soft at a parkland course like Medinah, the best players in the world will shoot lights out unless you stretch it to 7,800+ yards and make ridiculously brutal rough.

Actually, I don't think it's as bad as the title of this thread would indicate. The winning score is going to be somewhere around 270-ish which on a course this length under perfect conditions is about what I'd expect for this field.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2006, 09:36:12 PM »
The quality of the leaderboard argument is spurious.

Almost all these majors have been setup to benefit the longest staightest players. Rather than test the most couragest and creative. Arguably Tiger would still be there, but how many of the others would still be close, if the event were held on a firmer more inspiring design?

 Medinah takes the need for creativity to a new all time low.

From this perspective, that was the gist of Brad's, and Geoff's, pre-game critique.  IMO, they NAILED it.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2006, 09:52:32 PM »
The quality of the leaderboard argument is spurious.

Almost all these majors have been setup to benefit the longest staightest players. Rather than test the most couragest and creative. Arguably Tiger would still be there, but how many of the others would still be close, if the event were held on a firmer more inspiring design?

 Medinah takes the need for creativity to a new all time low.

From this perspective, that was the gist of Brad's, and Geoff's, pre-game critique.  IMO, they NAILED it.

Since you love using Shakelford's words, what does inspiring mean in the context of your posts?  I'm just trying to separate the two.

And what the hell do you know about the need for creativity at Medinah....again, you haven't played the course.  You can't comment on the availibility of creative shots on a course that you've never set foot on or took a swing?  Your constant, ignorant bashing is getting old.

Do you want to comment on the conditions from what you saw on TV, fine.  I don't understand why you continue to post critiques about characteristics that can only be assessed in person...and we know you've never been there in person.  Your cop-out that you can make these opinions based on Geoff and Brad's writing is a lame excuse.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2006, 09:57:08 PM »
I don't know if the emperor's clothes are off, but there is certainly a fool in the kingdom. The moron who jumped up and swatted down Tiger's drive yesterday was pathetic. I wonder what the differential is between what that guy shoots and what he writes down? ::)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2006, 10:01:36 PM »
 You can't comment on the availibility of creative shots on a course that you've never set foot on or took a swing?  Your constant, ignorant bashing is getting old.

Do you want to comment on the conditions from what you saw on TV, fine.  I don't understand why you continue to post critiques about characteristics that can only be assessed in person...and we know you've never been there in person.  Your cop-out that you can make these opinions based on Geoff and Brad's writing is a lame excuse.

With every rebutal you illustrate how much you DON'T KNOW!

I've been on property, I've walked the course.

BTW, Did you ever get more info on Ernie Els?

I must say your wishing him mis-fortune, was the single most disgusting thread I've ever had the displeasure of reading on this web site.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2006, 10:06:00 PM »
Ryan,
   Given your knowledge of the course, I am curious if you think the pro's would need any creativity even if the course was in the most perfect maintenance meld you can imagine?
   When I was in Chicago last week the guys I golfed with said they play Medinah occasionally to see how well they are playing and the course kicks their butts. So for most golfers Medinah is all the test most golfers need.
    The super or someone missed the mark with course prep, but I am enjoying the tournament and hope we get a contest tomorrow.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2006, 10:12:26 PM »
 You can't comment on the availibility of creative shots on a course that you've never set foot on or took a swing?  Your constant, ignorant bashing is getting old.

Do you want to comment on the conditions from what you saw on TV, fine.  I don't understand why you continue to post critiques about characteristics that can only be assessed in person...and we know you've never been there in person.  Your cop-out that you can make these opinions based on Geoff and Brad's writing is a lame excuse.

With every rebutal you illustrate how much you DON'T KNOW!

I've been on property, I've walked the course.

BTW, Did you ever get more info on Ernie Els?

I must say your wishing him mis-fortune, was the single most disgusting thread I've ever had the displeasure of reading on this web site.

Please then Adam, educate me.  You are the one throwing around the terms and the "critiques" without ANY factual support.  Please teach me, specifically, where the flaws are.

You are tremendous at insults and quick replies but you have not answered ONE question....let alone, posted an original thought re: this golf course.  Also, please let me know when you walked the course....I would love to do some of my own fact checking.

Re: Ernie Els - all I said what that I would always root against him....and I stand by that.  My heart goes out to his family but that does not excuse his lack of presence at the event and explain his presence on the putting green.  Again, just my opinion.  It also does not explain his answer at the press conference.

And finally, your criticism that my posts show "how little I know."  In what regard?  As an architect - you're right.  But as a golfer, I'll put my experience playing the game competitively and skill level up against most on here.  
« Last Edit: August 19, 2006, 10:22:01 PM by Ryan Potts »

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Medinah- The Emperor With no Clothes
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2006, 10:31:32 PM »
Ryan,
   Given your knowledge of the course, I am curious if you think the pro's would need any creativity even if the course was in the most perfect maintenance meld you can imagine?

Absolutely.  When the greens and fairways are hard and fast (which is the condition they were built for) you need to approach the course in a totally different manner than what you are seeing.  When in that condition, there is a huge premium on playing short of the hole and taking different lines than what you are seeing.  I'll provide details later.